Your examples of how men just don’t *get it*

[AsYouWishButtercup]

What are your examples of how men just don’t get What life is like for women?

Mine was a dad at school drop off today who asked if I was still training for a half marathon. I said no as I’ve just had surgery but TBH it it nigh-on impossible to train in winter outside because of the dark nights and by the time I leave work it’s too dark to start a run

He said “Why don’t you just invest in a head torch” when I explained it’s not the lack of light that’s the problem, it’s the danger of being attacked, it seems the thought had NEVER occurred to him that women have to factor these things into everyday life. I’m constantly amazed that men are surprised by these things.

But you don’t seem to realise that much of what you said is also true of men on their own. We are also targets, simply for being on our own.

So in conclusion: men are the problem. Men are the attackers. What, as a man, are YOU doing to prevent your peers from being so violent all the time? Or do you see male violence as a problem for women to sort?

As other have said the everyday sexual harassment from once you start developing

Many men, well probably all think this is one or two incidents in our lives

And then being asked why I don’t confront them wtf how do I know they are know that are not only fine with sexually harassing/assaulting me they might be happy to punch me too

As I get older I have less tolerance for men who don’t get really get it

@OhWhyNot perhaps we women are overstepping in losing our tolerance. After all, we are supposed to be nurturing, supportive and ever so kind. It's as though we don't understand that men are attacked too. Listening to some more mansplaining about male on male violence may help us rebalance our perspective so we pretend being prey doesn't matter.

@Symposium123 you are literally giving up a real time example of men not getting it. Thank you for confirming OPs hypothesis 👍🏼

Men get attacked, men get raped, I know this is the case but do men need to change their lives as they grow to keep safe. As a woman I try not to go out alone after dark, I carry a make shift weapon (walking stick, umbrella) I'm on high alert, looking over my shoulder, listening, avoiding places where someone could drag me, jump out. Travelling on trains late isn't easy looking for busy carriages, safty in numbers. Long time ago, getting the train alone for a night out, group of work men waiting for the same train. One older man shouted to me to get on the carriage with them. Sounds as I write it (nasty) but it wasn't, I sat in that carriage feeling safe. Do men study the room, every room. Its easier now I'm older (not harassed )but also a drain knowing I'm less able to run, fight. Times have changed, my niece said she doesn't get touched up in pubs, well rarely. Growing up in the early eighties it was just what happened, nightclubs pubs everywhere you went, grab comment, sigh! But I do feel maybe wrongly, that violent attacks are more common now, could be just the fact that nothing can be buried due to social media.

l don' t understand why women expect men to think like they do? Men are totally different in so many ways.
Evolution plays a huge part in why men behave and think differently. It is no excuse for violence but men are definately wired up differently.
I think what gets totally overlooked on these kind of posts is the fact we have a much higher suicide rate for men in this country and l was shocked to learn on a young widows forum that suicide was the highest cause of death. Nobody ever seems to question that.
l think we have to be careful of not becoming a society hell bent on the shaming of all men and boys which seem to be the theme of these threads. it seems a very popular trend on here.
l don' t share the same fears, l don't believe all men are killing machines or monsters, l am quite happy to do what l want to do when l want to do it. You have to careful what limits you put on yourself.

Whatsabouty

I think what gets totally overlooked on these kind of posts is the fact we have a much higher suicide rate for men in this country and l was shocked to learn on a young widows forum that suicide was the highest cause of death.

Because it has nothing to do with male violence towards women? It’s tragic fir any family that has lost someone in this way. It is irrelevant to whether I decide to walk home a certain way or not.

And nobody is saying all men are like this. The problem is you don’t know which ones are going to be on your route home.

@Moonface123 no ones asking them to think like we do…we’re asking men to take an interest and try to understand a woman’s perspective and take steps to help them feel safer? The evidence would indicate that socialisation has as much if not more of a part to play in how men are ‘wired’ than evolution.

Yes, the suicide statistics are awful and sad…another symptom of toxic masculinity where men are socialised to be ‘strong’ and not ask for help so stems from the same root cause as violence against women…living in a patriarchy. At the same time that’s not the topic of discussion here. Would you go on to a thread about lung cancer asking ‘but what about the people with diabetes?’ Perhaps you could start a thread about male suicide rates if that’s a subject you feel strongly about

l don' t understand why women expect men to think like they do?

If by ‘think like women do’ you mean see women as humans who deserve respect, deserve not be live in fear of being raped, beaten or murdered, then yes i do expect ‘men to think like women’.

Seriously though, what will it actually take for men to be expected to have basic respect for women?

@PurpleDaisies

I think what gets totally overlooked on these kind of posts is the fact we have a much higher suicide rate for men in this country and l was shocked to learn on a young widows forum that suicide was the highest cause of death.

Because it has nothing to do with male violence towards women? It’s tragic fir any family that has lost someone in this way. It is irrelevant to whether I decide to walk home a certain way or not.

Exactly. ‘What about men’s problems’ is just a thinly veiled way of telling women to STFU about male violence.

I also resent it when the pick-me posters obtusely say ‘I don’t think all men are murderers’. nobody thinks that you muppets - but there’s ENOUGH men who are violent that VAWG is an actual epidemic in this country. Are you actually sitting about waiting for 100% of men to be violent before you actually a shit about the problem?

It's of course fabulous if you have never felt unsafe and go about your business without ever considering those aspects.
This is not the case for majority of women though.
I personally might go running after dark, but I would stick to certain well lit routes in the village. I would not go to certain other areas, whereas my husband would without giving it a second thought. When I mentioned that I don't feel comfortable running this or that route, he said that 'Oh yes, the women in my running club said the same about running in the dark'. All men had been totally oblivious.

I hope that in certain aspects, it's getting better - you are not expected to put up with stuff in the workplace that was just 'oh boys will be boys' when I was young. Unfortunately this has been replaced with online harassment. And yes men get it too, but you only have to read about women gamers or any situations where the poster was assumed to be male as opposed to female - the situations are in no way comparable.

Off the subject of personal safety- I once had an experience with an ex - he was self appointed 'good guy' and very woke.I came home one day from work and told him how this new guy was very patronising and sexist and had put me down a couple of times.My ex had NEVER met him at all yet said " I'm sure he didn't mean it like that"

My 'good guy' ex did exactly this. I really relate to this. It's v disempowering and just v patronising. Obviously the pp knows that..

I don' t understand why women expect men to think like they do? Men are totally different in so many ways.

I don’t think anyone has said that they want men to think like women do.
It’s about men being AWARE of the way women are working, living and the impact of THEIR behaviour in women.

For me, it’s similar than if you have an able bodied person and someone in a wheelchair at a supermarket. I’d expect the able bodied person to acknowledge that the person in a wheelchair will be slower/have problem reaching a shelf at the supermarket etc.. I would have a major issue if that able bodied person was simply moving the wheelchair user out if the way so they can grab what they want and go on their day.
It would be right to point out to that able a bodied person how being in a wheelchair is limiting, what sort if issue they create etc.. it would also be right to expect the able bodied person to put themselves in the other person shoes for … oh about 2 seconds before deciding to wait or move the person away.

So why is it not right to tell men the impact of the misogynist society has on women? From the space they take, to the difference on how they are treated at work to the very physical risk of violence.
It’s not expecting them to think like women. It’s expecting to learn about their privilege and how being in the ‘not privileged ’ group affects women.

Fwiw those threads are essential for another reason.

It is very easy as a woman to not SEE what is going on. Being careful at night, the way we are expected to behave etc… is our normal and it can be hard to see how different it is than men’s life.

Highlighting how men behave and the difference with women is good for WOMEN. Not the least because if you are not aware, there are many many ways misogyny shows up that you don’t noticed and therefore you can’t challenge.

@AsYouWishButtercup, totally agree with you. I am envious at women who minimise this, perhaps they have been the extremely rare ones to never have been harassed in the street and followed (I have, countless times and it is not worth the risk).

@Notmenono - if you mean Nottingham, ‘I couldn’t agree more! I was always wary of using the underpass from Broadmarsh and this suggestion would be worse. If you d ont mean Nottingham, just ignore me!

he'll not read my body language and he'll just stride to where he needs to be.

I've found this sharing our small-ish kitchen with DH who has been doing lots of cooking recently.

He sometimes notices I'm in his way and stops ok. But he never notices how much I adjust my movements around him. If I see he is going to the bin I'll do something else til he is finished.

While I am no fan of NAMALT, the first time I noticed this was when our dance teacher visited. I made a meal, he hung out in the kitchen. I stopped myself saying at the start, look this kitchen is pretty small best you go over to the doorway with you drink. Effortless, without pausing, he moved just enough so that he was never in my way no matter where I went he had already moved away.

As a dancer he was very aware of how he moved through space and as a person aware enough to use the skill in this situation. DH may dance but he doesn't have that skill or even realise the lack.

I think more women are aware of the space they take up and look out to be out of peoples way.

I think I've mentioned this before, I got off the bus late from work, now I either walk through the alley to home or go around three streets and a school much safer. I was tired and looked down the alley, a man in a suit went down the alley so i thought oh I will follow at a safe distance. Half way through he abruptly turned and quickly headed my way, I screamed at the top of my lungs. The poor guy got such a shock apparently he had forgotten his brief case. I ran past him like a bat out of hell. Never did take the short cut again

Finallyhere it's back to how women are socialised to be polite. It's the smiling at people to mitigate threat; the moving out of the way for other people; the shrinking to let others get past; the holding yourself tight on public transport; being taught to cross your legs in primary school. That last one might be different now girls can wear trousers.

Early teenage years too- the girls whose breaststroke grew, kind of hunching over to hide them.

I have a dh with no awareness of people. I worry he's going to get into trouble one day,as he doesn't seem to notice when he's got in people'sway. But he's partially deaf, so I think he doesn't pick up on the sounds of people being around him.

Play Patriarchy Chicken!

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2019/02/how-play-patriarchy-chicken-why-i-refuse-move-out-way-men

Good luck!

Manspreading chicken is also good fun on a train - walk your suitcase down the aisle, don’t say excuse me and see how many men’s legs you knock.

Maybe it's because I work in forensics and read horrific things all day but stranger danger doesn't really worry me. Statistically it's rare.
There are many things which women are afraid of which men just wouldn't get such as
-getting into a new relationship especially if you already have children

• living in a shared house
• being alone with people of the opposite gender
• having sex or choosing not to have sex
• being homeless
• having a body

Meaning women are on edge all the time!. This is our lives. One of my colleagues has had to move three times due to sexual harassment in shared houses. That's crazy!

I was attacked walking home late at night once. Fortunately I was able to run. But I've noticed I always give myself an escape route.

I don't use a lift alone at night. I'll take the stairs... escape route.
I won't use a taxi alone. I'll walk home... escape route. (I know this one sounds bonkers!)
I avoid being alone with any men at night, accept my Dad, brother and husband. I had to control my fear when alone with my best friends husband, whove I've known for 16 years. I had my eye on the door the whole time, despite knowing it was irrational.
I double check all the doors at night when DH isn't home. I have a plan for if someone breaks into the house (grab kids, lock us in bathroom... then out the window if they try to break through the door). Escape route.

During the day its fine. Its night time.