Child deliberately not eating enough to stay up later

[Helpmetosleepplease]

DD is 6, she hates going to bed and will do everything to get out of it. I’ve learnt to ignore her and put her to bed, she does eventually sleep.

She’s now realised if she doesn’t eat enough at 5pm she’s too hungry to sleep. I’ve tried ignoring it but she wakes up 2, 3, 4 times in the night screaming she’s hungry which means I get even less sleep.

So she’s now having a substantial snack at 7pm (bed time is 7.30pm – snack has to be toast or a crumpet and a piece of fruit and sometimes she’s still hungry and wants a bowl of cereal (dry)) but she’s then too hyped up to sleep so ends up playing (with no toys just her own voice) until 9 or 10pm at night.

I can’t sleep until she goes to sleep (anxiety related) so that’s meaning I’m not getting enough sleep.

Earlier bedtime doesn’t help, not giving the snack means she wakes up, giving a smaller snack means she still hasn’t eaten enough so wakes up in the night, just milk doesn’t help because she doesn’t really like it so will take a few sips and then say she doesn’t want anymore, she also doesn’t like water or squash – she’d live off fruit juice if allowed but the dentist has said it’s really bad for her.

I suspect she has ASD although no-one agrees so I’m struggling to get anyone to get a diagnosis for her. She is diagnosed with Hypermobility and has an eye problem as well.

Any suggestions? I can’t go on like this. I need to sleep.

Would leaving a bowl of some sort of snack by her bedside help at all?
No judgement from me here.. I have a daughter who was very very similar as a child and it was so difficult... and yes she has ASD but it wasn't recognised until she was much older as she is bright, articulate and very complex.
My DD1 only ate white foods for a year, refused milk from a few months of age, I could go on. It was a nightmare, and it wasn't me 'being anxious' (although I was, obviously!) it was her.. she had huge anxieties around food, virtually from birth. (My other three children were not like this!)
I resorted to leaving little bowls around the house with anything she might eat in. She only drank Milupa baby fennel granules drink (which stopped being produced..I think I bought every tub Boots sold!) for years. Until she was a teen she had to have foods not touching.
Didn't sleep and was very thin (and is now as an adult still battling anorexia relapses)

I honestly don't think your dd having late snacks is going to be making ehr hyper...it's more likely her own anxiety about life, and she does sound to me like she probably is on the autistic spectrum.
You can't force her to sleep when you would like, but I would focus on strategies to keep her evenings as chilled and anxiety free as possible. Some children just do not need sleep.
School dinners are usually NOT adequate (I'm an SEN TA and frankly think they suck)
If you can get quorn into her...do.. great protein (my dd wouldn;t touch meat because of the texture), but basically just feed her whatever she WILL accept.
And ignore the juice haters... any fluid is better than none. When the fennel ran out my DD drank diet lemonade. She's had ONE filling as an adult and it's more likely from the lactulose she needed for her constipation as a child!
You may have to simply accept that you won't get to sleep early and that 's how it is. I learned to survive on 5 hours a night, but once I'd accepted that that was how it was going to be I sort of relaxed and got on with it.

It's hard but you just have to forget what she 'should' do and focus on making life gentle for you both.
PS my DD1 is now an adult, a doctor and still as complex, highly anxious with food problems, ASD (and hypermobility !) but she's functioning pretty well , considering...

I didn't sleep much and had lots of dislikes in food.

Diagnosed as celiac and lactose intolerant (as part of the damage from undiagnosed celiac) as an adult.

I refused mostly stuff that I now can't eat - milk, porridge (similar protein to gluten), pasta, cakes, biscuits, etc. Didn't have much choice about bread as there was bugger all else I could eat.

Those things all make me feel nauseous and give me stomach ache, as do the majority of sauces and other preprepared food - because they contain gluten/barley/wheat/dairy/oats.

@Helpmetosleepplease

Thank you all will definitely look at dietician referral.

She does eat quorn and meat subsitutes but not sure how good they are for protein? I don't tend buy them but will look into it if they're good for that.

Yeah quorn is great! Even quorn nuggets and chips with a glass of apple juice would be a decent enough dinner that should fill her up. I mean it's not as nutritionally perfect as lentil stew with root vegetables and a glass of milk but she's not going to eat that (nor would any of the children I know)

Your problem is when you said she has her main meal at school !! School dinners are not meant to be the main meal, in neglect cases the child only gets their main meal at school. I'm not saying your purposrfully neglectful but your logic is all wrong. Feed your child a proper and wholesome evening meal. Poor child sounds half starved

It says in the thread title child deliberately not eating to stay up later.

Theres obviously far more to this than what she's being given for her dinner

So she has soup or beans on toast or something like an omelette at 4.30-5pm. But she will easily eat a 3 egg omelette and some toast. But now she eats nothing or a quarter and then is hungry again at 7pm.

Blimey, even I can't finish a three egg omelette and if I eat most of it I won't be hungry for hours. That's very unusual. Looking at her typical menu she seems to eat loads. I'm wondering if this isn't about hunger at all.

She says she has tummy ache. How are her bowel movements? If she's constipated due to lack of fluids and too much white bread, dry cereal etc, then she's not going to be able to settle at night. You need to find ways of getting more fluids and fibre from vegetables into her. Maybe try making thinner soups that are completely blended, mostly tomatoes so they taste familiar but with some lentils or broccoli or canned beans or something in there? She might drink it from a mug if it's thinner.

There's lots of carbs in her diet (which is good!) but not a lot of fat or protein, which is what fills you up. So could you look at something like cheese cubes or even cream cheese/humus to dip with her breadsticks in the afternoon, rather than more fruit.

Well apart from the three egg omelettes I agree in general.

I would give her a small snack when she gets in from school and move her main evening meal to a bit later. 4.30 or 5 might be a bit too early.

But as I said, this might not be about food at all. It's either that her digestive system in all out of whack so she genuinely can't settle, or it's something else - she's doing it for attention.

You say she eats her main meal at school or the holiday club. Do you work full time? Do you pick her up from school or are you not seeing her until later in the evenings? I'm wondering if she hates going to bed because she doesn't spend enough time with you and she thinks the evenings are too short. Maybe she just isn't tired at 7.30. Have you tried moving her bedtime up to 8 or 8.15? I agree it's quite late for her age, but if it helps her (and you) get an uninterrupted night's sleep then it's worth a try.

Is there any reason you go to bed at 8.30 and get up at 4.45-5.00? What time is she waking up in the mornings?

OP, it may well be worth researching Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. I have hypermobile Ehlers-Danlos syndrome myself. It can present with many different symptoms. Eye problems are common with EDS, as are gastric issues and anxiety. ASD is also commonly diagnosed in EDS patients (around 40% I think is quoted by the Ehlers-Danlos Society)

Google EDS diagnostic checklist and seeing how many boxes she ticks as she already has a hypermobility diagnosis.

I’d do the evening meal at 6.30. No snacks after 4.30, has to wait for tea.

Also you could introduce a star chart, tell her if she eats well and sleeps well she gets a star. After e.g 14 stars she can get a treat. My son for example might get a mod pack on minecraft as a treat when he’s collected 14 stars. His behaviour is amazing since we introduced the star chart 6 months ago. If he doesn’t get a star we are clear about why e.g “you woke mummy and daddy up 3 times in the night without good reason and we’re not happy so you’re not getting your star today”.

My dd has some sensory issues, not to the degree of your dd. At your dd’s age, her diet was pretty restrictive. I agree with those saying she needs to eat properly and perhaps a little later. She eats omelettes, a couple of vegetables and Quorn nuggets. That’s great. At that age, my dd ate about 3 different meals and I gave them to her on rotation every evening. Rather than feeding her the snacky teas, I would do the same with your dd.

As for decreasing the carbs, someone suggested protein powder in cakes. I used to make dd lowish sugar cakes with lots of eggs - enough so that I didn’t need to add extra fluid. Think 5 large eggs in place of 2. I also tried adding things like 20% milled flaxseed. You’d have to be careful with adding any kind of thing like this as it does change texture and colour. Dd ate chocolate cakes so I could hide all manner of things. I also made cakes with added courgette or carrot.

This thread has got me thinking. I’m going to try making cakes with added prebiotic powder. Dd is a teen and eats so much junk these days. Since a round of major surgeries, understandably, I’ve got out of the habit of baking.

I hope you can fight for a diagnosis. I am really glad you have had some advice on how to navigate the teacher gatekeeping by insisting she be referred.

Oh and please give her fruit juice. She needs to drink for her health. As others have said, start with 20% water added.

You really need to see a different GP or go through the school nursing team to get her on the ASD assessment route (you're far more likely to be neurodoverse if you have hypermobility, by the way - big crossover).

Any ASD assessment will take a long time, so you need to look in the meantime at dietetic support, but from someone who's informed from a neurodiversity/sensory perspective.

You sound like you're doing amazingly, but it sounds like you really need professional input, particularly if she's "tiny". In these situations, I'm afraid you have to politely fight your backside off for appropriate support if you're relying on the NHS - it's no use to say "so and so won't refer", you have to find keep pushing or find different channels to get there. It's not how it should be, but that's the reality.

And as others have said, it is absolutely NOT the school's role to gatekeep any referral!

Carbs help sleep so good to give them as supper.
www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/news/20070214/carbs-may-help-you-fall-asleep-faster

I'm autistic and manage sleep with blackout blinds and eye mask, white noise, melatonin, weighted blanket, something soft to stroke and an audio book set on a timer.
It's bloody hard work going to sleep!
Try the audio book at least. Or there are good sleep.meditations for children.

Also carbs for supper
www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/news/20070214/carbs-may-help-you-fall-asleep-faster

@fallfallfall

What physical activity is she getting?

This is critical with young children. My youngest two are away out in woodland regularly, playing free around trees, with sticks etc. They're out in all weathers to tire them out.

This is definitely worth a shot OP if you can. She will be shattered, honestly.

[quote Mommabear20]@Hospedia how is it bad advice?? My mum and every one of my friends parents did this growing up! We had the choice to eat or not but we weren't rewarded with something better if we refused our tea! [/quote]
Did you have food issues? Or ASD?

@HarrisMcCoo sounds like she is getting good level of activity. Sleep for children with ASD doesn’t work the same as typically developing children. Physical activity doesn’t not equal more sleep for these children

For her fluid intake, forget drinks like milk or water. Ice lollies are ideal.

[quote Lifeispassingby]@HarrisMcCoo sounds like she is getting good level of activity. Sleep for children with ASD doesn’t work the same as typically developing children. Physical activity doesn’t not equal more sleep for these children[/quote]
Fair enough. It's sounding like OP is trying her best with activity levels each day as it is. Have just only read through all the pages.

maybe google attention deficit discorder and see if that applies to her. My daughter has this and getting to sleep is a huge issue for her due to her mind jugglying a million things. We had to put her on slow release melatonin in the end but that needs a prescription from a psychiatrist.

She sounds like she has what I have. ARFID (avoidance and restricted food disorder).

I agree with pushing with the doctor and watering down the fruit juice as much as you can. (Go a little bit at a time so she doesn’t taste the difference)

Won't give suggestions on food or ASD as you've has some great advice on her. My eldest has ASD and we didn't get a diagnosis until year 4. It's not unusual for girls to get diagnosed later. Keep pushing.

Will she tolerate ice lollies? She'd get some fluid from that? We've made lots before when illness gas prevented drinking etc

Op does she sleep with you? If she doesn't, if I was you I would consider it. It helped because I found it easier to stay half asleep when he was awake and it was the only way I could get my son to sleep through the night and eventually his body got used to sleeping through the night.

@BabycakesMatlala

And as others have said, it is absolutely NOT the school's role to gatekeep any referral!

Depends where you live. Here, in an ordinary English local authority, the only path into the paediatric team that does ASD assessment is through the school senco (unless your child is not enrolled in a school). It’s spelled out all over their webpage, referral forms etc. They will not accept self referral and local GPs won’t touch anything to do with it. I know more than one local parent forced to go private because their school senco didn’t have a clue what autism can look like in girls.