Child deliberately not eating enough to stay up later

[Helpmetosleepplease]

DD is 6, she hates going to bed and will do everything to get out of it. I’ve learnt to ignore her and put her to bed, she does eventually sleep.

She’s now realised if she doesn’t eat enough at 5pm she’s too hungry to sleep. I’ve tried ignoring it but she wakes up 2, 3, 4 times in the night screaming she’s hungry which means I get even less sleep.

So she’s now having a substantial snack at 7pm (bed time is 7.30pm – snack has to be toast or a crumpet and a piece of fruit and sometimes she’s still hungry and wants a bowl of cereal (dry)) but she’s then too hyped up to sleep so ends up playing (with no toys just her own voice) until 9 or 10pm at night.

I can’t sleep until she goes to sleep (anxiety related) so that’s meaning I’m not getting enough sleep.

Earlier bedtime doesn’t help, not giving the snack means she wakes up, giving a smaller snack means she still hasn’t eaten enough so wakes up in the night, just milk doesn’t help because she doesn’t really like it so will take a few sips and then say she doesn’t want anymore, she also doesn’t like water or squash – she’d live off fruit juice if allowed but the dentist has said it’s really bad for her.

I suspect she has ASD although no-one agrees so I’m struggling to get anyone to get a diagnosis for her. She is diagnosed with Hypermobility and has an eye problem as well.

Any suggestions? I can’t go on like this. I need to sleep.

For a couple of years at around that age, we gave our (ASD) son a supper of weetabix in warm milk to ensure that he didn't stay awake through being hungry.

God that is tough, ASD wouldn't surprise me at all, she is very food limiting and having no drinks....Be careful with bananas I don't think you should eat too many due to potassium content - but look it up to check. I think seeing a dietician would be a really, really good idea - definitely mention your concerns about ASD to them.
I would dilute the juice very slowly or she may become suspicious and start rejecting it outright. Does she have a multi vitamin? That would probably be a good idea if she will have a chew or if you can hide it in something. You really need some help though as it must be really stressful to have to try to deal with.

My dd was very similar and is still fussy at 21. One thing we did find eventually was that she liked oat milk, maybe try with different lactose free milks? Dd won’t eat any meat or fish, from being a baby and isn’t keen on many veg so still has a restricted diet but has improved as she’s got older.
Would she try cucumber or watermelon? Trying to think of watery foods.
I would definitely try for a dietitian referral, the not drinking should be enough to get you one I hope. I wish we had for dd. Good luck

Sounds really tough. As others have said, have you tried foods with higher water content? Porridge made with milk can be quite thick, almost like a flapjack. Jelly? Ice lollies?

I’ll add that dd 21 mentioned above has had a therapist saying she’s more than likely high functioning autistic but dd has chosen not to be assessed. She does have dyslexia and other learning issues.

@Helpmetosleepplease Not going to help long term, but for 1 evening could you get a take away, such as a large Pizza Hut pizza, which would be too tempting not to eat. It could give you the chance to catch up on some sleep.

www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/behaviour/eating/all-audiences

Useful, but why use 50 words when you can use 50,000!!

I think diluted fruit juice with food would be fine, it won't affect the teeth more than food would.

Hi OP, I haven't read the full thread but scanning your posts on here I'd say - your DD looks very possible she could be autistic. What you describe about her only accepting juice and tomato soup for liquids, or dry cereal at breakfast etc all sounds such familiar territory to me (two DC diagnosed autistic).

Restricted eating is not purely about sensory issues for autistics (ie having a strong sensory reaction to the taste / texture / smell / look of foods) but can also be about a need to control anxiety. Both my children have/had restricted eating but one has quite significant problems in this area and it's largely because food has become one of the key areas where she exerts maximum control in order to abate her anxiety. Many autistics (esp girls) can have overwhelming anxiety levels but these can be hidden to an extraordinary degree.

Do you remember when your DD started to want strategies to resist bedtime?

Ie, was this actually a sleep / nighttime anxiety / sleep change which has got transferred onto an eating issue?

If so then unpicking what the sleep issue is could help.

Another thought would be to try worm medicine. My son had worms a few months ago and his stomach and bottom started to hurt around 4/5pm each Eve, getting worse towards bedtime, he'd be howling with tears and refusing bed. We assumed it was anxiety related as he has ongoing tummy issues with his anxiety, but eventually we tried worming him and it was like a magic bullet solution.

Can you buy whole wheat white bread? It looks like white bread but it isn't as non nutritional as ordinary white bread.
Do you bake? Could you buy veg or other protein powder online or in a shop and bake muffins or biscuits using the powder?
Have you tried all the cheese there is out there?
Does she like oatmeal/ porridge?
Can you buy whole wheat pasta or chickpea pasta?

I would try giving her juice to drink. She needs to drink right now more than she needs perfect teeth. You can gradually water juice down over a few months.

What can you cut out or cut down on in order to afford to get her assessed for ASD?

Hi op, you said in an early post that your dd would drink fruit juice but that the dentist advised agents it, is that right?
I would say , let her have the fruit juice and when she’s going to bed ok and sleeping through you can try slowly diluting the juice down to 50/50.
If she brushes her teeth properly twice a day her teeth should be fine.

She is most likely dehydrated, if she never drinks. It is very important you do something about it. Also, that’s a huge amount of bananas, bread, eggs and cereal and no protein. And no real dinner at all, at night time..? Not good.

Try give her a tiny glass of water to drink before her meal, if it’s something she wants she might drink it. Or she has to. Because it is that important. Would she eat protein if it was on a stick, like chicken? Try different ways to serve it. But she needs more proper food, not bread and cereal.

@bebanjo

Hi op, you said in an early post that your dd would drink fruit juice but that the dentist advised agents it, is that right? I would say , let her have the fruit juice and when she’s going to bed ok and sleeping through you can try slowly diluting the juice down to 50/50. If she brushes her teeth properly twice a day her teeth should be fine.

No, just no. Her teeth won’t be just fine, following this advice. It is really bad advice.

When I lived with my grandparents we always had supper (a small meal before bed) this was often things like toast or cereal. I found that with my own DD she would sleep better if she was full.

I would give her a small tea and then give her supper before she goes to bed.

At 6 years old i'd be inclined to say "do yourself some toast then if you're still hungry" and let her do that with minimum fuss or interaction from you in case she's just doing it for attention.

A 6 year old is more than capable of putting 2 slices of bread in the toaster and buttering them when they pop up - and if she's not capable, it's time to teach her.

Would she drink crushed ice, with a straw?

Off the sleep track but I would query so many bananas. At one point When I was young was having 2 a day and had an allergic reaction and I do not react to any other foodstuff.
I’d also be worried about the stress an almost liquid free diet must be having on her kidneys.
Will she eat homemade iced lollies?
You’re coping with a difficult situation on little sleep so have all my sympathy.

Sorry if I’ve missed it, but why do you get up before 5am? Can you give us an example of what she eats for meals and snacks as well as the time? Maybe add snacks between meals and a later evening meal, say 7pm. Then she can go to sleep at 8pm.

5pm is obviously not an ideal time for her if she isn’t hungry at that time (which is early for an evening meal), but is asking for toast and crumpets at 7pm.

@Theyellowflamingo

OP she really does sound neurodiverse, in which case all the “they’ll eat/drink eventually”, “give them the same meal back” stuff won’t work. My child would starve before they ate something they felt anxious about or that was the wrong texture - I don’t mean for a few hours, I mean for days and days. They would drink absolutely nothing if water was not available (we are incredibly lucky that water is what they have landed on as their only liquid). Part of the sensory issues from their ASD is they don’t feel thirst the way a typical person might, their whole sense of how their body feels is out of kilter.

As part of her assessments etc have you ever asked for a referral to a dietician?

Yes all of this ^^

OP my DD also doesn’t drink but she would have milk (only at bedtime/wake up) and fruit juice (in a certain carton with a specific type of straw), but literally that’s all - no water or even other types of juice or squash - and has similar approaches to food although her actually likes and dislikes are different to your DDs. I would encourage her to have as much as she wanted of her ‘safe’ foods and drinks. Yes fruit juice isn’t good for you, but at least some fluids are better than none. I consulted a dietitian and we established that she was getting enough nutrients through an average week as she was having multivitamins and her (non dairy) milk was fortified. Perhaps you could consult a dietitian?

get her more involved with the buying preparing and cooking of meals, have nights where its her totally, and no matter what she gives you you eat it with a smile, make her feel really proud of her efforts, even get her her own cook book so she decides whats for tea from that. build her confidence up and get her interested as much as you can. then once its all cooked make sure she puts out a plate for herself to try her "masterpeice! this helps loads by stopping the anxiety starting regarding food in the first place and makes the whole thing more fun, take pics of the meal, give it marks out of 10 from her, and put up on a board. try something different each night until you have a full weeks worth of meals, and then she gets to choose what she wants that way and is more likely to eat the lot, a little bribery too if you want? you will do all the washing up if she has a clean plate! keep it light and fun tho with lots of laughing doing it

@mathanxiety

Can you buy whole wheat white bread? It looks like white bread but it isn't as non nutritional as ordinary white bread. Do you bake? Could you buy veg or other protein powder online or in a shop and bake muffins or biscuits using the powder? Have you tried all the cheese there is out there? Does she like oatmeal/ porridge? Can you buy whole wheat pasta or chickpea pasta?

I would try giving her juice to drink. She needs to drink right now more than she needs perfect teeth. You can gradually water juice down over a few months.

What can you cut out or cut down on in order to afford to get her assessed for ASD?

Can you buy whole wheat white bread?

Never thought to try that thank you will try it

Do you bake? Could you buy veg or other protein powder online or in a shop and bake muffins or biscuits using the powder?

Not often but I can, never thought to try that thank you

Have you tried all the cheese there is out there?

Tried Cheddar, red leicester, mozeralla, feta, soft cheese, goats cheese and wensleydale, she would only try the soft cheese and mozeralla the rest she refused to put in her mouth.

Does she like oatmeal/ porridge?

She doesn't

Can you buy whole wheat pasta or chickpea pasta?

I will try those thank you

What can you cut out or cut down on in order to afford to get her assessed for ASD?

I can't afford it, I already have no luxuries, basic broadband, basic phone, I don't buy clothes unless I absolutely have to otherwise I ask for them for Christmas or my birthday. Spend as little as possible on food and shop in Aldi and Lidl or occasionally b+m, never go to Tesco or Morrisons or Sainbury's. I sell all DDs outgrown clothes and toys to get money back but it makes very little. I also mend her clothes if she gets a hole or something in them rather than pay for new ones, only after they've been repaired a few times do I give in and buy new ones even then I shop in Charity Shops unless it works out cheaper to do Primark.

I'm on the cheapest utility contract I can be, get the biggest discount I can on council tax, live in social housing so rent is supposedly cheaper (not by much mind you).

I work but get no CM (a whole other thread), get a top up from UC and then the CB, but thats all i can get. I've applied for DLA but have been told she can;t get it.

Ps I can see that you're getting lots of good advice about food issues for neurotypical children, but if you think your DD could be autistic then please do some research and be cautious before throwing a load of different strategies at it which might be more suited to non-autistic children.

For those mentioning lack of proteins and fluid etc, I'd agree that of course those are obvious "deficits" in the diet, and of course the longer term aim would be to increase these, but it's worth mentioning that if the above listed food intake is for a child who turns out to be autistic, then the current diet looks flipping amazing!!

Will she drink a non dairy milk? Some children with sensory issues regarding food will tolerate rice or oat milk. My real concern is the lack of hydration. Although I also think that 4.30 is too early for her main meal, which may be why she doesn't want it then and is hungry later.

I'd say later dinner later bedtime- my 7 year old's lights out is 9pm-930 - he wakes at 7am and functions fine on this amount of sleep.

Apologies if it’s already been said, but this jumped out at me

she doesn't drink much at all she's always hungry.

Is she actually hungry or just thirsty! It can be difficult to tell the difference sometimes