Child deliberately not eating enough to stay up later

[Helpmetosleepplease]

DD is 6, she hates going to bed and will do everything to get out of it. I’ve learnt to ignore her and put her to bed, she does eventually sleep.

She’s now realised if she doesn’t eat enough at 5pm she’s too hungry to sleep. I’ve tried ignoring it but she wakes up 2, 3, 4 times in the night screaming she’s hungry which means I get even less sleep.

So she’s now having a substantial snack at 7pm (bed time is 7.30pm – snack has to be toast or a crumpet and a piece of fruit and sometimes she’s still hungry and wants a bowl of cereal (dry)) but she’s then too hyped up to sleep so ends up playing (with no toys just her own voice) until 9 or 10pm at night.

I can’t sleep until she goes to sleep (anxiety related) so that’s meaning I’m not getting enough sleep.

Earlier bedtime doesn’t help, not giving the snack means she wakes up, giving a smaller snack means she still hasn’t eaten enough so wakes up in the night, just milk doesn’t help because she doesn’t really like it so will take a few sips and then say she doesn’t want anymore, she also doesn’t like water or squash – she’d live off fruit juice if allowed but the dentist has said it’s really bad for her.

I suspect she has ASD although no-one agrees so I’m struggling to get anyone to get a diagnosis for her. She is diagnosed with Hypermobility and has an eye problem as well.

Any suggestions? I can’t go on like this. I need to sleep.

You don’t have to pay to have your child assessed for ASD.

OP, there's quite a bit to unscramble here.

The main thing - and I mean this gently - is that you are overthinking it (though I realise that you're exhausted, and a degree of overthinking is inevitable when you're under-slept).

I know it's hard to imagine - but what if your DD were your second or third or sixth child? I promise you that you would barely notice what they were eating or drinking, and you would give short shrift to nocturnal disturbances for any reason other than illness. Your DD is clearly getting enough fluid, somehow, because she would be unwell if she weren't. I could possibly have listed what my PFB ate in a day, but I couldn't have begun to list what the neglected subsequent DC ate or drank. They have all made it to adulthood, although one is still a terrible fusspot about food.

Would your DD drink fizzy water? Mine preferred it to still (and none of them has any fillings, although I remember reading that it's not recommended by dentists). I used to add fizzy water to Coke as a treat for them, too (also added plain water to orange or apple juice, as a PP suggested).

I know it's really hard, but you need to try to avoid passing on your anxious feelings about food/sleep. I used to give my DC Weetabix before bed (they mostly had it with milk, which wouldn't work for your DD - but one had a phase of refusing milk, so had it dry). Cereals such as Weetabix won't hype a child up. However, your own reaction might do, even if you think you're being calm.

I think you have to try to take a deep breath. It's a phase, and not one that deserves this degree of worry. I think you're right not to co-sleep. I saw my DC for 12-13 hours per day, and we didn't need to see one another at night too.

@Helpmetosleepplease oh I just saw your other message about her diet. Have you tried putting her to bed at a later time so she sleeps in? 7:30pm-5am is a long time so maybe she could sleep 8:30pm-6am instead? Then she can have breakfast at a reasonable hour and dinner at a later time. Will she have weak diluted squash in her water? Maybe add more oats and protein to her diet.

Bananas and toast are an excellent bedtime snack, glass of warm milk to wash it down. Bananas contain melatonin

7:30 for a 6year old ? Isn't that too early ? Maybe try pushing it to 8:30

Re being told she is not eligible for DLA - It's true a diagnosis helps with a DLA application but it's not essential as the DLA application is about the child's needs. There is an online guide from Cerebra which is very helpful.

Do you know about the Special Needs board on MN? It's a fantastic resource. Try posting in SN Chat, loads of really experienced parents who can help.

You could also post there re getting your DD referred for ASC assessment on the NHS.

7.30 seems way too early to go to bed for a 6 year old.

Edam and Gouda are good mild cheeses to try

Do you ever get her to cook dinner or help out with the food shops?

Cooking together can be helpful as she’s involved in the food from the beginning and may be more willing to taste it once it’s ready. After a while, you may be able to expand her ‘safe’ foods to include more meals.

As I read that, I recognised it as something my son did and still does do... he has ASD.
I stopped him waking me with hunger by making sure there was a snack in the fridge. I won't have the meal time arguments as I think this is counter productive and hot chocolate make with milk, cream and a couple of match mellows is surprisingly filling. Ignore the fact it is sugary, so long as the rest of your diet is okay it is worth it, works a treat.

Just a thought, if she likes banana and toat could you try and get her used to different textures and ’different’ (but same) food by mashing the banana so it becomes a bit more liquid and put on toast..? And even simple things like cutting the toast into different shapes? One of my children refused meat, but would eat mini meatballs (cheap to make) skewers, or chicken or vegetable skewers.

Would she eat jelly? Make a jelly with banana/water and or yoghurt. Gradually cut back the banana for another fruit or just dilute fruit juice in a jelly form

Frozen yoghurt on a stick- ideally home made so you can control the sugar

Watermelon or other high, fluid fruit

Sorry not rtft, but I’ve read on mn that melatonin can work quite well (from gp) in helping kids to sleep.

She doesn’t sound like she has much protein. Protein is vital and also keeps you full for longer.

Hi op , I too had /still have a fussy eater. I would try moving tea time a little latter . Food wise you sound like you are trying to vary her diet , not easy and equally expensive if she doesn’t eat it . She obviously likes school dinners so maybe replicate some of those as evening meals too .

Instead of putting things on her plate might it be helpful to put things out in serving dishes and let her help herself to whatever she is choosing to eat at that time?

It sounds like she needs dinner.
All my children have had dinner after school.
Why would lunch be the main meal? It just sounds like a normal lunch.
That leaves a meal missing. Very strange.

Fibre is also really important and is what makes you feel full. It fills you up and stops that hungry rumbling sensation - you can have loads of protein but without any fibre you'll still feel hungry.

She needs a mixture of soluble and insoluble fibre if you can find ways to add it into her diet.

She does sound horrendously dehydrated. That would easily wake someone up, severe dehydration is such a painful and distressing sensation.

I hope you are able to make some progress. It sounds really tough.

You could also try and do ridiculous things like get her to put tiny corn and cucumber on tooth picks, and challenge her to which she will eat first. If she likes tomato soup she can dip bread in it and eat. All things she likes, but to get used to eating it in a different way.

My ASD daughter will only drink water or juice. There have been times when she has refused all but juice. I would not restrict fluids, but allow any she will drink. My girl will only drink juice from a carton through a straw, which has the unintended benefit of bypassing her teeth (which are pretty good aged 19, one small filling ever). Sometimes you have to accept the less than ideal choice. It’s so important to have enough fluids.

I’m horrified at the people saying to let her drink fruit juice before bed. Not squash. But fruit juice

Fruit juice damages the teeth because the acidity dislodges our mouths chemicals and makes it take about an hour till the acidity levels are back to normal due to our saliva.

Her drinking fruit juice is very bad for her teeth. Exactly like the dentist has said. Please try to limit the fruit juice.

However. She needs to drink. I think a dr needs to now have some input. If nothing else she could get really sick.

Agree with other that finding other ways to hydrate her is important. Diluting the fruit juice is a good first step that she is unlikely to notice up to about 50%. Other high-water foods are salad bits like cucumber, celery, tomatoes, lettuce and fruits like melon, grapes, berries, etc. Also ice cream and ice lollies are very high water if she is willing to eat them.

You have my sympathies, OP - it sounds like you've tried all kinds of things and are a lovely mum.

@Nocutenamesleft

I’m horrified at the people saying to let her drink fruit juice before bed. Not squash. But fruit juice

Fruit juice damages the teeth because the acidity dislodges our mouths chemicals and makes it take about an hour till the acidity levels are back to normal due to our saliva.

Her drinking fruit juice is very bad for her teeth. Exactly like the dentist has said. Please try to limit the fruit juice.

However. She needs to drink. I think a dr needs to now have some input. If nothing else she could get really sick.

Getting her to rinse her mouth after the juice will help with this if she is wiling to do it, even if only with water. Adults would be advised to use a mouthwash but I'm not sure that's right for a six-year-old.

I can't get any assessments for her, school won't refer her as they don't think she's got ASD or ADHD or anything

That's appalling!

School staff are not trained to diagnose or rule out ASD or ADHD. The do not have the knowledge or skills to make the judgments. In fact, they probably aren't even aware fo the diagnostic criteria. They are acting outside their remit here.

Contact the school nurses and ask them to refer her to a community or developmental paediatrician. If they refuse because they don't see any issues, tell them you're her parent and you do which is enough.

There's a ton of evidence to justify a neurodevelpmental assessment in your posts here.

In the meantime, I would try to stop worrying about her eating. The sleeping issue may be a deficiency in melatonin which is common in children with ASD. Bedtime is probably very stressful for her. Do whatever you can to reduce the stress.We went through a period of allowing DD2 to fall asleep on the sofa in the living room every evening because that was easier for everyone. It didn't last long and it made us all happier not having the battle every night.

Stop taking no for an answer when you request a referral and persist until someone listens x

Op, whilst your dc may be autistic, she would not meet diagnostic criteria based on food/ sensory issues alone, although this could merge into restrictive/ repetitive behaviours. Your dc would need to be showing signs of social communication and interaction difficulties to hit criteria. Does your daughter exhibit any of these- difficulty with eye contact, not picking up on social cues, struggling to hold a two way conversation, literal understanding of language, friendship issues etc. These can be very subtle in girls but a professional would ask the right questions to unpick this. If you haven't already, write all your concerns down and go back to the GP or as others have suggested referring to school nurse.