Child deliberately not eating enough to stay up later

[Helpmetosleepplease]

DD is 6, she hates going to bed and will do everything to get out of it. I’ve learnt to ignore her and put her to bed, she does eventually sleep.

She’s now realised if she doesn’t eat enough at 5pm she’s too hungry to sleep. I’ve tried ignoring it but she wakes up 2, 3, 4 times in the night screaming she’s hungry which means I get even less sleep.

So she’s now having a substantial snack at 7pm (bed time is 7.30pm – snack has to be toast or a crumpet and a piece of fruit and sometimes she’s still hungry and wants a bowl of cereal (dry)) but she’s then too hyped up to sleep so ends up playing (with no toys just her own voice) until 9 or 10pm at night.

I can’t sleep until she goes to sleep (anxiety related) so that’s meaning I’m not getting enough sleep.

Earlier bedtime doesn’t help, not giving the snack means she wakes up, giving a smaller snack means she still hasn’t eaten enough so wakes up in the night, just milk doesn’t help because she doesn’t really like it so will take a few sips and then say she doesn’t want anymore, she also doesn’t like water or squash – she’d live off fruit juice if allowed but the dentist has said it’s really bad for her.

I suspect she has ASD although no-one agrees so I’m struggling to get anyone to get a diagnosis for her. She is diagnosed with Hypermobility and has an eye problem as well.

Any suggestions? I can’t go on like this. I need to sleep.

Our dieticians advise having set meal and snack times, no food outside these times. Can each as much or as little food as they like, always two items of food they reliably like served with each meal and pudding served at the same time as dinner.

@Nocutenamesleft

I’m horrified at the people saying to let her drink fruit juice before bed. Not squash. But fruit juice

Fruit juice damages the teeth because the acidity dislodges our mouths chemicals and makes it take about an hour till the acidity levels are back to normal due to our saliva.

Her drinking fruit juice is very bad for her teeth. Exactly like the dentist has said. Please try to limit the fruit juice.

However. She needs to drink. I think a dr needs to now have some input. If nothing else she could get really sick.

This. It’s now or never to ger her used to water, for the future. Not fruit juice. It’s absolutely mad.

Yes, her drinking fruit juice risks tooth damage.

Her not drinking at all risks kidney failure. Perspective.

Her not drinking at all risks kidney failure. Perspective.

Exactly.

People being over-controlling with children who have ASD and food issues can have terrible consequences. Whilst there is a possibility that this child's issues could be linked to neurodevelopmental differences, the OP needs to tread very carefully. Exacerbating anxiety around food/drink often leads to even more restricted diets.

Since no-one else has answered this, yes Quorn is a good source of protein. For other meat substitutes, look for those made with soya, pea, or wheat protein (gluten, also called seitan).

@maryzx

OP, there's quite a bit to unscramble here.

The main thing - and I mean this gently - is that you are overthinking it (though I realise that you're exhausted, and a degree of overthinking is inevitable when you're under-slept).

I know it's hard to imagine - but what if your DD were your second or third or sixth child? I promise you that you would barely notice what they were eating or drinking, and you would give short shrift to nocturnal disturbances for any reason other than illness. Your DD is clearly getting enough fluid, somehow, because she would be unwell if she weren't. I could possibly have listed what my PFB ate in a day, but I couldn't have begun to list what the neglected subsequent DC ate or drank. They have all made it to adulthood, although one is still a terrible fusspot about food.

Would your DD drink fizzy water? Mine preferred it to still (and none of them has any fillings, although I remember reading that it's not recommended by dentists). I used to add fizzy water to Coke as a treat for them, too (also added plain water to orange or apple juice, as a PP suggested).

I know it's really hard, but you need to try to avoid passing on your anxious feelings about food/sleep. I used to give my DC Weetabix before bed (they mostly had it with milk, which wouldn't work for your DD - but one had a phase of refusing milk, so had it dry). Cereals such as Weetabix won't hype a child up. However, your own reaction might do, even if you think you're being calm.

I think you have to try to take a deep breath. It's a phase, and not one that deserves this degree of worry. I think you're right not to co-sleep. I saw my DC for 12-13 hours per day, and we didn't need to see one another at night too.

I likewise mean this gently - but this post doesn't help and isn't reflective of what the OP shares of her circumstances:

Her DD is diagnosed hypermobile
She suspects her DD is autistic but school and GP have not taken her concerns seriously
Her DD is an early riser
Her DD has restricted eating patterns and a low fluid intake
The OP is under financial strain and is using a lot of her energy to stretch resources and make ends meet
DD's father is not there to support in person, possibly the OP is parenting alone now

I don't think in light of the above that the OP is overthinking the issue, or passing on her own anxiety about food or sleep to her daughter!

It sounds like OP could well have been living with the differences of an autistic child and doing a brilliant job of supporting her so far, but now needs professional help around eating, and nobody is helping because services have been slashed to shreds.

Good grief. She's probably hungry because you're not giving her a proper evening meal. Just because she has a decent lunch, it doesn't mean she just has something on toast to see her the rest of the day.

If you woke up in the night complaining with hunger and your partner told you no, you ate enough, you'd LTB. Why is that any different here? It doesn't matter why you're hungry, the fact is you are hungry and didn't want the food before.

OP you don't have to pay for an ASD referral and you don't need school to refer you either. There is more than enough in what you've posted to get a referral in most health boards. The SN board here can help you with that.

Also, the teeth police aren't exactly being helpful here.

I'd include something like yoghurt and/or cheese with her evening snack, she needs some fat so help fill her up and if she won't drink milk then look to something else.

OP she really does sound neurodiverse, in which case all the “they’ll eat/drink eventually”, “give them the same meal back” stuff won’t work

How does it work then?

If there wasn’t squash/juice/milk available were neurodiverse people dying of dehydration decades ago?

You need to give her an actual dinner after school, surely?

No wonder she's hungry. She's having breakfast, small snack, a small school lunch, a snack at home and then being expected to get to 5.30am before having anything else.
You and ex need to make her a proper meal for her dinner!

@Nocutenamesleft

I’m horrified at the people saying to let her drink fruit juice before bed. Not squash. But fruit juice

Fruit juice damages the teeth because the acidity dislodges our mouths chemicals and makes it take about an hour till the acidity levels are back to normal due to our saliva.

Her drinking fruit juice is very bad for her teeth. Exactly like the dentist has said. Please try to limit the fruit juice.

However. She needs to drink. I think a dr needs to now have some input. If nothing else she could get really sick.

'Horrified'

Child either drinks Orange Juice or absolutely nothing at all and ends up in hospital with damage to the kidneys..

Come on, now.

If there wasn’t squash/juice/milk available were neurodiverse people dying of dehydration decades ago?

Um... yes. Or they'd have been committed to an institution and forcibly fed/hydrated.

What do you think happened to neurodiverse people prior to the level of recognition we have today?

There are records going back hundreds of years about children dying of "wasting" sicknesses such as "nervous consumption" where food was a source of distress and was refused.

And that's not even mentioning lack of visibility. 20/30/40+ years ago, autistic children (and adults) were around, they existed, and their food issues were dealt with like they are now - by parents quietly getting on with managing their child's needs, providing them with what they know works, and with piss-poor support from 'the system' and a whole heap of judgement from people who don't understand.

If there wasn’t squash/juice/milk available were neurodiverse people dying of dehydration decades ago?

This comment is shocking. I'm grateful to Hospedia for responding so calmly and eloquently.

Have you tried giving her jelly? Orange jelly maybe? Custard? Ice lollies?

Would she eat more of a liquid meal - something with a sauce - curry or chili with a flatbread.

Some fruits and veg contain lots of liquid - cucumber, melon etc.

Tbh it sounds as though she is getting so little liquid I’m surprise she hasn’t had a urine infection or issues with her kidneys.

You need to swap her main meal to the evening. If she eats loads as you say, she isn't getting enough fuel. Either that or she has 2 proper meals a day, lunch and dinner. She's obviously actually hungry if she's eating all that. So change the routine/meals. Sometimes a bowl cereal is enough at night to last to the morning.

Chicken and turkey are meant to have tryptophan in them that is meant to help with sleep if that's any help? Weighted blankets? Sorry not much help. I've got one of my teens currently having trouble getting to sleep although not as bad a problem as you but still a worry.

Really feel for you. Havwe you a Sleep Fairy specialist you could ring for advice? No personal experience of them but have seen them mentioned on here. Good luck OP.

@FTEngineerM

OP she really does sound neurodiverse, in which case all the “they’ll eat/drink eventually”, “give them the same meal back” stuff won’t work

How does it work then?

If there wasn’t squash/juice/milk available were neurodiverse people dying of dehydration decades ago?

My ASD child would have died as a baby, as wouldn’t breastfeed, struggled to bottlefeed and had multiple allergies. Or would have been a “sickly child” and starved. If he’d survived he’d probably have been relentlessly bullied and ended up in a workhouse or an asylum or been the victim of a fatal accident due to sensory seeking or regular beatings because of his behaviour. Funnily enough I aspire to better for him.

If you know nothing about eating disorders or autism, maybe refrain from making smart arse comments.

My ASD child would have died as a baby, as wouldn’t breastfeed, struggled to bottlefeed and had multiple allergies. Or would have been a “sickly child” and starved. If he’d survived he’d probably have been relentlessly bullied and ended up in a workhouse or an asylum or been the victim of a fatal accident due to sensory seeking or regular beatings because of his behaviour. Funnily enough I aspire to better for him.

Same.

One of mine only had breastmilk, wouldn't accept solid food at all and even at 14mo was getting the bulk of his calories from milk. It took months and months of work to get him to accept food and by the age of two he had around a dozen foods he would reliably eat - all of them bland with dry, simple textures and very little in the way of flavour (horror of horrors, chicken dippers are his main safe food). It then took years and years of hard work and gentle steps to expand on this and he now has around 15-16 safe goods that he will reliably eat. He hits all of the major food groups so this is as good as it'll get and he has a vitamin supplement each day to cover deficits. Even then, when he's stressed or anxious, food intake is the first thing he shuts off. In days gone past I'd have been pressured to force him to eat, probably by handing him off to a hospital or residential school, where he could live out a miserable, terrified existence with a hose forced down his throat multiple times a day.

Sorry I havent read it all I got up to your typical day meals. No way would that be enough for my children (aged 5 and 8) she needs a good breakfast before school not raisin or banana at 8:30! Try egg or cheese or beans on toast. School meals are tiny so adjust your thinking on that. If shes asking for food at school shes not getting enough over the day. Do snack after school of beans on toast/soup etc then a meal at 6pm.
Try a visual timetable for the day with snacks and also 3 meals plus drinks. Start with juice if that's what age drinks and gradually water it down each day. She has to drink though.
It will be tough for a while but set clear rules- meals eaten and drinks drank. If she leaves a meal she has it just before bed on your terms then normal bedtime.

What do you do when shes wakes in the night? You dont feed her do you? Sip of water and back to bed.

I'm a sen teacher by the way, lots of asd experience.

@Nocutenamesleft

I’m horrified at the people saying to let her drink fruit juice before bed. Not squash. But fruit juice

Fruit juice damages the teeth because the acidity dislodges our mouths chemicals and makes it take about an hour till the acidity levels are back to normal due to our saliva.

Her drinking fruit juice is very bad for her teeth. Exactly like the dentist has said. Please try to limit the fruit juice.

However. She needs to drink. I think a dr needs to now have some input. If nothing else she could get really sick.

It’s the better of two options - fruit juice or nothing. Neurotypical children may drink water because they are thirsty and there is nothing else available but some children would rather have nothing and as a parent of a suspected neurodiverse child, I would prefer to have orange juice than not. I won’t prioritise her teeth over her general health.

If she leaves a meal she has it just before bed on your terms then normal bedtime.

Please don't keep offering a rejected meal until its eaten or imposing "your terms" on the offering of food. This goes directly against advise given by paediatric dieticians, I know because I've seen lots of them with DS. Doing this simply creates negative associations with food/mealtimes and will make it even more difficult for her.

What do you do when shes wakes in the night? You dont feed her do you?

If your child is hungry and distressed due to feeling hungry, as OP has described, then you feed them.

I'm a sen teacher by the way, lots of asd experience.

Are you, aye? Because it sounds like you've definitely no experience of food issues. Teachers teach, they're not dieticians.

@2toastornot2toast

Sorry I havent read it all I got up to your typical day meals. No way would that be enough for my children (aged 5 and 8) she needs a good breakfast before school not raisin or banana at 8:30! Try egg or cheese or beans on toast. School meals are tiny so adjust your thinking on that. If shes asking for food at school shes not getting enough over the day. Do snack after school of beans on toast/soup etc then a meal at 6pm. Try a visual timetable for the day with snacks and also 3 meals plus drinks. Start with juice if that's what age drinks and gradually water it down each day. She has to drink though. It will be tough for a while but set clear rules- meals eaten and drinks drank. If she leaves a meal she has it just before bed on your terms then normal bedtime. What do you do when shes wakes in the night? You dont feed her do you? Sip of water and back to bed. I'm a sen teacher by the way, lots of asd experience.

You’re a SEN teacher? Jesus wept.