Can a father really just take the baby if there's no agreement for him to have them both?

[prettyingold]

DFriend has got herself into a terribly sticky situation and she's in bits... she knows I'm posting but she's very depressed by it all

DFriend spent a few months in another country outside of the EU for work. She had a bit of a love interest and the sex was a one off.. there's often quite a lot of waiting around before DTD as it's just not the norm to date and then have sex straight away, from what she says. So they're both a bit shocked it all came to be from a one off

DFriend is back in the UK now and she's pregnant. She's terrified but knows she wants to keep the baby.

She let the father know and he was a bit disappointed since they are not married, and would be expected to be. But then he came around within minutes and says she should return to him so they can be married and have the baby in his country.

She says she does not want to do that, she's staying here. He has told her that if she won't come back then he can have it arranged so that he keeps the baby and has sole custody. He claims he thinks this would be the case even if she gives birth in the UK

Thing is he didn't sound threatening, from what I heard. And things are worded differently when you're from other cultures so I don't think he's abusive.

She does say if he was in the UK she'd have liked to maybe have a relationship with him because he's very kind and polite, very trustworthy. Likes his culture. But she doesn't want to live outside of the UK

But, can he really do that? Obviously she will have to research this properly and get proper legal advice but is it really possible, anywhere?

I've said I'm pretty sure the UK would protect her and not allow this. I hope I'm right

Also, I know he needs to be present, to put his name on the birth certificate (unless they were married), but he could show up after the birth, and pressure her to let him go with her/put his name on.

This with bells on.

@SoItWas from what I can gather, it's just hammered into them that sex is for marriage. Which is interesting because religion doesn't even come into it for this - it's purely cultural from what I can tell

I'm a bit shocked because South Korea seems quite advanced and westernised

Very happy to be corrected

I would take this as a huge red flag, refuse to go to that country again, apply for passport as soon as the baby is born and keep it secure. Under no circumstances allow him to take the child to his country.

This

If sex is seen as for marriage, it seems odd that it would also be culturally normal to have sex right away, before marriage. I'm just musing if he's told her "it's just how we do things", when it's really not? Like a bloke trying to get a woman to engage in anal sex, by saying "it's totally normal, everyone does it!". Potentially another red flag?

South Korean culture, as far as I know, is extremely patriarchal. It's also very insular and not so welcoming to foreigners. There is an increasing gap between the rich and poor. They are technologically very advanced but still very 'backward' when it comes to women and children's rights

@TeenyQueen isn't that North Korea?

@SoItWas no, you’ve misunderstood the commas. OP means it’s not normal to date or to have sex right away in a new relationship in this culture. As in, you’re gf and bf officially right from the first flirting/kissing/going out together, people don’t see multiple possible partners at the same time (dating) and sex is a big deal that doesn’t happen until a relationship is extremely serious, it’s not unusual to wait until you’re engaged or married.

@TraceyLacey

I wouldn't have the baby in this situation. I'd spend the rest of my life terrified and looking over my shoulder.

I wouldn't have it either. Life is hard enough without this to deal with too.

Babyiskickingmyribs

Ah, d'oh! Can you tell I'm a bit sleep deprived

@NameChange8283 this is what the OP said
She let the father know and he was a bit disappointed since they are not married, and would be expected to be. But then he came around within minutes and says she should return to him so they can be married and have the baby in his country.
He did not want to come to the UK so what you said is wrong. He wanted her to lose any security or support she has within minutes of telling him.

Why the hell aren't people using contraception in a situation like this? It drives me absolutely crazy.

South Korean society is different in so many ways, often paradoxical when it comes to sex. It is deeply traditional and illegitimacy is taboo, yet you can easily find "love motels" (although a western teacher at an international school arranged a school trip and only realised they had booked the children into a "love hotel" when reception gave out a condom with each room key!) and "special" barbers shops with two barber poles outside indicating that there may be a back room for "happy ending" massages.

He can't take her to court if he can't find her...

Nope definitely South Korea too. Very patriarchal.

@BorsetshireBanality

South Korean society is different in so many ways, often paradoxical when it comes to sex. It is deeply traditional and illegitimacy is taboo, yet you can easily find "love motels" (although a western teacher at an international school arranged a school trip and only realised they had booked the children into a "love hotel" when reception gave out a condom with each room key!) and "special" barbers shops with two barber poles outside indicating that there may be a back room for "happy ending" massages.

Oh yes. Dh was booked into one of those when he was on a business trip there (by the company he was visitting so they knew what they were doing). It took him a while to understand what on earth was going on!

‘ She had a miscarriage with a long term boyfriend 18 months ago. I think that's why’

@prettyingold This is a key point.

Her current pregnancy may be all the more urgent & precious because of her recent significant loss of both the relationship & the baby. So termination could be that much harder for her to consider.

However, this is an accidental pregnancy from a ONS with a man she barely knows from a place where she has no connection. So a responsible Co-parenting arrangement is highly unlikely & has the easy potential to be very fraught.

Ideally she would address her loss & bereavement from the miscarriage before considering another pregnancy.

Carrying on with the current pregnancy may not resolve those feelings & bring her a great many problems.

I've just said the same on another thread and here we are again. OP your friend isn't the only person that's important here. The baby deserves to have 2 parents and just disappearing and denying the child any kind of relationship with the father just because it's more convenient for her is unfair and could cause resentment later down the line.

@UseOfWeapons

If she’s that early in her pregnancy, and has had a previous miscarriage, I think she needs help, some independent counselling. It sounds like her judgement isn’t good at the moment, and she’s thinking only about how much she wants a baby, rather than the best interests of the potential child, first and always.

I agree that she needs to blank social media, so that she can’t be found, and block his number until she is in a position to make a more rational decision. She doesn’t need him influencing her at the time she needs a clear head. If she thinks he. Ishtar contact her through her work, a word to her workplace that she’s concerned about a guy contacting hee would alert them to protect her details.

My own belief is that as this is a result of a fling, an abortion would be a reasonable thing to do, rather than spend a lifetime either lying and hiding, or acrimoniously trying to co-parent across half the world. A child brought it to this sort of start in life has the odds stacked against it form the outset, their whole background and cultural identity would be a mystery or a nightmare.

However much she may want a child, this is not the right time, the right person, or the right situation into which she plans to bring a vulnerable young life.

I wish her good luck.

This sounds like the best advice on the thread to me.

I get everyone saying he potentially sounds abusive. However, in the same vein he may be concerned for the future child from what has been written. It is very difficult to say. But having read having a child out of wedlock in Korea is very taboo, he may equally be thinking the child would be stigmatised, in poverty or abandoned. So the offer could be 100% genuine. Not even your friend can decifer that.. however, one thing is for sure, she needs to stay in the U.K.

As for why did he ask her to go to him? Idk. Again perhaps he is abusive or misogynistic. Equally it may be because he has his own home, is well established in his career and knows your friend could work in Korea etc. Perhaps going to live near the man’s family is the done thing. We simply don’t know.

I was also swept up with the block, delete, pretend you’ve miscarried. However, I am not persuaded this in the interest of the child or indeed your friend. She needs support and to talk to someone about this. She needs a little perspective to understand just what she’s putting herself through and the affect on her future child.

Update is that he's been back in touch this afternoon for her to call

He has said he's deeply concerned for DFriend and wants to know just who is looking out for her over here. He is surprised there's no real stigma attached to single parents here. He seems a bit horrified she has no family support and isn't settled with it

He has said he will be supportive and wanted to know if he could visit her for her scans. He seems to understand he cannot have her living in Korea but wants to know she definitely doesn't want that once she's had time to think things through properly

He doesn't want to baby aborted and is asking her not to do that, saying it'll hurt his heart (friend says a phrase like this is Korean for it would upset me a lot).

She is still at a loss (I didn't hear any of this, I'm not there now). She's also seen thread but just thinks it's unfair she is in this position now

That's all I have for updates

She needs to see a lawyer

It's been a really judgmental day on Mumsnet today. I'm sorry for your friend who is receiving comments like she should get an abortion (despite saying she doesn't want one) or flaming her for being irresponsible.

Accidents happen, we all make mistakes. And bringing a child into this situation isn't necessarily setting them up for a life of hell. And there are lots of "happily" married couples who go on to ruin their children's lives. See the stately homes thread.

The guy is probably confused because he is expecting the ops friend to react like a Korean woman would do in this situation and probably will take some time getting his head around the options available to western women.

Rather than judge the op, let's be thankful that in the west we have choices. Not having an abortion is one of those choices. Let's celebrate that rather than look down on someone we know very little about for exercising their right to choose.

Similarly, I agree the father has a right to choose to be in the fathers life (no fake miscarriage) - but in the UK and in line with the British legal system.

He needs to go, his response certainly is abusive and controlling irrespective of culture. You can’t guilt trip someone into marrying you or indeed handing their child over because they won’t. She needs to cut all contact and ghost him, but not before telling him that if he wants contact then he will have to seek legal advice (he probably won’t!). She must not at any point put his name on the birth certificate otherwise she’ll be giving him parental responsibility.

[quote prettyingold]@SoItWas from what I can gather, it's just hammered into them that sex is for marriage. Which is interesting because religion doesn't even come into it for this - it's purely cultural from what I can tell

I'm a bit shocked because South Korea seems quite advanced and westernised

Very happy to be corrected

[/quote]
I'll correct you as my son in law is from sk. Family is everything in sk. They look after their elderly and their children. If a single mother gives birth, the whole family will help and support her with the men In the family stepping up as father figures.
Being the first son of a first son is very important in their culture which would make you immediately think that women are viewed as 2nd class citizens. However, this couldn't be further from the truth. I've visited a few times now and am impressed at just how equal the women are in every aspect of life. They are miles ahead of the western world in education, technology and employment
The father of this baby will be horrified at the thought of leaving your friend to manage by herself.
They truly are honorable and gentle people

@DamnUserName21

Get both the child's passports as soon after birth as possible if they are entitled to dual citizenship at all? Not sure if he would need to be on birth certificate for that? Do not give the child his last name.

OP's friend can't get S.Ko citizenship for the baby. The father would have to apply for this depending on South Korean law and even then this should be discouraged as it could give the father rights to the baby under S.Ko law.
To be clear, if the child is entitled to S.Ko citizenship, do not get it. The child may be able to claim it at 18, again, depending on S.Ko law.

If the child has uk citizenship, it can have south Korean citizenship too. They don't allow dual