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Original poster

Can a father really just take the baby if there's no agreement for him to have them both?

249 replies

prettyingold · 12/12/2021 10:22

DFriend has got herself into a terribly sticky situation and she's in bits... she knows I'm posting but she's very depressed by it all

DFriend spent a few months in another country outside of the EU for work. She had a bit of a love interest and the sex was a one off.. there's often quite a lot of waiting around before DTD as it's just not the norm to date and then have sex straight away, from what she says. So they're both a bit shocked it all came to be from a one off

DFriend is back in the UK now and she's pregnant. She's terrified but knows she wants to keep the baby.

She let the father know and he was a bit disappointed since they are not married, and would be expected to be. But then he came around within minutes and says she should return to him so they can be married and have the baby in his country.

She says she does not want to do that, she's staying here. He has told her that if she won't come back then he can have it arranged so that he keeps the baby and has sole custody. He claims he thinks this would be the case even if she gives birth in the UK

Thing is he didn't sound threatening, from what I heard. And things are worded differently when you're from other cultures so I don't think he's abusive.

She does say if he was in the UK she'd have liked to maybe have a relationship with him because he's very kind and polite, very trustworthy. Likes his culture. But she doesn't want to live outside of the UK

But, can he really do that? Obviously she will have to research this properly and get proper legal advice but is it really possible, anywhere?

I've said I'm pretty sure the UK would protect her and not allow this. I hope I'm right

OP posts:
Chamomileteaplease · 12/12/2021 13:40

It honestly sounds like a complete car crash Sad.

Which is extra sad because in the middle of it all is a poor baby.

GrannytoaUnicorn · 12/12/2021 13:42

@CharlotteRose90

Don’t blame him on the birth certificate and delete his number. Only way to do it. Have to say but I’d say i had a miscarriage too.
You can't 'name' anyone on the birth certificate if they're not present to sign it!
sorryforswearing · 12/12/2021 13:51

I wouldn’t be putting him on the birth certificate.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Families Family law
sorryforswearing · 12/12/2021 13:51

Sorry just seen message above. x

UseOfWeapons · 12/12/2021 13:52

If she’s that early in her pregnancy, and has had a previous miscarriage, I think she needs help, some independent counselling. It sounds like her judgement isn’t good at the moment, and she’s thinking only about how much she wants a baby, rather than the best interests of the potential child, first and always.

I agree that she needs to blank social media, so that she can’t be found, and block his number until she is in a position to make a more rational decision. She doesn’t need him influencing her at the time she needs a clear head. If she thinks he. Ishtar contact her through her work, a word to her workplace that she’s concerned about a guy contacting hee would alert them to protect her details.

My own belief is that as this is a result of a fling, an abortion would be a reasonable thing to do, rather than spend a lifetime either lying and hiding, or acrimoniously trying to co-parent across half the world. A child brought it to this sort of start in life has the odds stacked against it form the outset, their whole background and cultural identity would be a mystery or a nightmare.

However much she may want a child, this is not the right time, the right person, or the right situation into which she plans to bring a vulnerable young life.

I wish her good luck.

Sowhatifiam · 12/12/2021 13:56

Reunite.org is a good, reliable source of information on the legalities of taking children abroad and what can happen if it goes wrong. Sadly, children do disappear for many years and this is what she needs to guard against. He may be a decent guy but he’s already shown little respect for her as the child’s mother and this is what she needs to guard against very carefully.

nothingcanhurtmewithmyeyesshut · 12/12/2021 14:04

I would tell him that she had a termination or miscarried. Even to the point of actually booking one and then cancelling it so she can show him 'proof'

Absolutely do not put him on the birth certificate, change all social media to completely private, no posts seen by friends of friends or even delete it entirely.

I'd go to great lengths to hide this baby as if he goes to court for access then he will eventually get unsupervised access. What is then to stop him absconding with the child?

Get both the child's passports as soon after birth as possible if they are entitled to dual citizenship at all? Not sure if he would need to be on birth certificate for that? Do not give the child his last name.

My friend had a baby with an abusive partner and when she was pregnant she was so worried about him getting access, she actually changed her name by deed poll before the birth and gave the child her new last name to make it harder for him to find her. Don't know if this is something you might consider depending on how much of an abduction risk he really is? If sounds pretty bad to us but we only get a snap shot of the situation.

GrannytoaUnicorn · 12/12/2021 14:06

@sorryforswearing

I wouldn’t be putting him on the birth certificate.
She can't without him there!
DamnUserName21 · 12/12/2021 14:17

Get both the child's passports as soon after birth as possible if they are entitled to dual citizenship at all? Not sure if he would need to be on birth certificate for that? Do not give the child his last name.

OP's friend can't get S.Ko citizenship for the baby. The father would have to apply for this depending on South Korean law and even then this should be discouraged as it could give the father rights to the baby under S.Ko law.
To be clear, if the child is entitled to S.Ko citizenship, do not get it. The child may be able to claim it at 18, again, depending on S.Ko law.

HTH1 · 12/12/2021 14:20

@LowlyTheWorm

She should just lie and say she miscarried. And then change her social media to be unrecognisable and block him.
I would do this. It may not sound ethical but there is a real risk to her and the baby here.
MrsLarry · 12/12/2021 14:21

He might not sound threatening....but he is abusive. He's manipulating her and trying to control her. The absolute worst thing she could do would be to go back to his country. He cannot just take the child.

Your friend needs to cut ties with this man and seek proper legal advice to protect her child.

liveforsummer · 12/12/2021 14:26

No he can't take this baby and if he's threatening to do so then sorry but he's not kind and non abusive. Personally I'd not risk visiting him in his country though bad if it's not one signed up to The Hague convention he could certainly disappear with the baby and there would be little to nothing she could do.
Sounds like she'd be well off to distance from him completely

Prescottdanni123 · 12/12/2021 14:43

The baby cannot be removed from the UK. Your friend should keep her whereabouts concealed from him as well, just in case he comes over here and tries to take the baby.

He may not believe it, but I'd be tempted to tell him "Double checked the dates. You are not the dad. Whoops, my bad".

ittakes2 · 12/12/2021 14:44

I would not put him on the birth certificate and get a UK passport - not a passport from his country! That makes the child a citizen of his country. If she puts him on the birth certificate she might need his permission to travel or get Uk passport. By the time he sorts things out the child would be engrained as in full time care with your friend.

Bellringer · 12/12/2021 14:45

Proper legal advice from competent lawyer with knowledge of international child care law

MindTheGapMoveAlong · 12/12/2021 14:45

@prettyingold I’m assuming from what you’ve said that you might have had a pre marriage religious ceremony which enabled you and your former partner to be together without chaperones. You’ll find some useful information and contacts here www.gov.uk/government/publications/international-parental-child-abduction/international-parental-child-abduction

Do speak to your local police force as they will have resources to help you. I know that local authorities (council social services) will provide free added home security (cctv, alarm system etc). In this sort of situation.
Make sure that you edit/secure ,and preferably come off, all social media.
As well as getting your baby a passport, get him/her on the watch list so there’s an ongoing alert in place. Also take monthly ID style photos, fingerprints and footprints. Sorry if all this sounds melodramatic but I’ve had some experience in these sort of situations. Most threats come to nothing but the more you can prepare the better. If nothing else it gives you more control in dealing with the situation. Good luck and congratulations on your DC.

Prescottdanni123 · 12/12/2021 14:46

But there is no way she should visit his country with the child. I don't know what country that is, but the laws could mean that custody of the child is taken from her and she is put on a plane back to UK without them.

liveforsummer · 12/12/2021 14:47

But from what she's said and what I've read about Korea whilst looking at my thread, it would be most shameful to get someone pregnant like this if he's married, and shameful again even if not married. So why would he be wanting the child anywhere near him if he is married?

I don't think anyone suggested he's having an affair - more that at 39 in this culture and especially position in the family you'd expect this man to be married with kids, why isn't he?!

For what it's worth, I think DFriend should exercise extreme caution. But it's very hard to tell exactly what he means, English isn't fantastic (it's good but not great), and different tones etc mean different things in South Korea so hard to say even more so

The worlds were incredibly clear. Makes no difference what time they were said in any language and it's foolish to want to believe otherwise

liveforsummer · 12/12/2021 14:48

@IncompleteSenten

She needs to get legal advice and protection. But although that will reduce the risk, children are still being taken by parents to another country and it can be hell on earth trying to get them back.

I don't care how unethical it is, if there is a genuine risk of him taking the baby then I would happily lie and tell him you lost it or that he's not the father.

Also this - whilst it's not legal to remove a child it's not impossible. Whilst it's a legal requirement to hand the child back if instructed by courts doesn't mean it will happen or happen quickly.
liveforsummer · 12/12/2021 14:52

Also a strong possibility of she was to go and have the baby there, then the high likelihood it won't work out because let's face it, this man is a stranger, is that she'd eventually be forced back to the UK without her child. This is something I've read about fairly regularly and is heartbreaking for the mum and her family not to mention the dc, usually left being brought up by a grandmother

whynotwhatknot · 12/12/2021 14:57

Whatever happens she should have the baby here and if he wants to see his child he sees them here and supervised

she should obviously get legal advice about all this

mam0918 · 12/12/2021 15:00

@prettyingold

DFriend has got herself into a terribly sticky situation and she's in bits... she knows I'm posting but she's very depressed by it all

DFriend spent a few months in another country outside of the EU for work. She had a bit of a love interest and the sex was a one off.. there's often quite a lot of waiting around before DTD as it's just not the norm to date and then have sex straight away, from what she says. So they're both a bit shocked it all came to be from a one off

DFriend is back in the UK now and she's pregnant. She's terrified but knows she wants to keep the baby.

She let the father know and he was a bit disappointed since they are not married, and would be expected to be. But then he came around within minutes and says she should return to him so they can be married and have the baby in his country.

She says she does not want to do that, she's staying here. He has told her that if she won't come back then he can have it arranged so that he keeps the baby and has sole custody. He claims he thinks this would be the case even if she gives birth in the UK

Thing is he didn't sound threatening, from what I heard. And things are worded differently when you're from other cultures so I don't think he's abusive.

She does say if he was in the UK she'd have liked to maybe have a relationship with him because he's very kind and polite, very trustworthy. Likes his culture. But she doesn't want to live outside of the UK

But, can he really do that? Obviously she will have to research this properly and get proper legal advice but is it really possible, anywhere?

I've said I'm pretty sure the UK would protect her and not allow this. I hope I'm right

The child belongs to the nationality/country they were born in regardless of parents' country unless both parents agree to relocate.

It is actually scarily common for a mother to get deported and her child be kept in their country of birth so she should absolutely not go abroad to give birth.

If she does she won't be able to return to the UK with the child if they split but if the child is born here the father doesn't stand a chance at forcably taking custody.

There was a case not long ago of a father who 'kidnapped' his 2 children from the UK care system.

They were born in the UK and in care after their mother (a duo citizen) disowned them and left.

The father and paternal family (non-UK citizens) had been fighting for years for custody and lost in the courts because it was deemed better for the kids to remain in England with no family and be passed around the care system than to be sent abroad to their family who wanted them.

I honestly hope he got them out of the country without getting caught, they already lost a mother and the thought that they were better in care than in another country with their family was fucking ridiculous but thats how stupid these decisions can be.

Coyoacan · 12/12/2021 15:13

I would be advising my friend to terminate in these circumstances. Preventing a father from ever seeing or being with his child is just wrong

When did we go from being pro-choice to criticising women who don't want abortions?

BlackAmericanoNoSugar's post sums up the legal situation quite well.

I don't think the danger is as bad people are making out. She just doesn't put him on the birth certificate. Organising an abduction in England would be seriously expensive and illegal, even if his name was on the birth cert.

But she should keep every scrap of information she has about him so that the child can eventually look for him.

TeenyQueen · 12/12/2021 15:22

What a mess! My DH is British-born but from a SE Asian family and the culture is quite similar to South Korea. He said that it's probably shameful to be in a relationship with a white foreigner. We're obviously in a mixed race marriage and DC are mixed race. DF needs to be prepared for the fact that the baby will look very much like the father so naturally people will be curious.

Lots of sensible advice here already about definitely not going to S.K and having the baby in the UK. The child should also not visit S.K in case the paternal family refuse to let the child leave.

If DF wants the father involved he can visit the UK, contribute financially to a bank account set up in the child's name and facetime etc.

I actually know someone who is Swedish-Iranian and the Iranian father was not involved in her life at all, yet she had a very happy and secure childhood in Sweden with her mum and mum's family.

I wonder what DF shared the news with the man so early on, especially because they barely know each other.

Getting married to a stranger in a foreign country would probably be the stupidest idea ever!

SoItWas · 12/12/2021 15:31

I agree she should have baby in the UK, not name him on the birth certificate, and get the babies passport asap (and hide it where he'll never find it), and any visits should be supervised by her, in the UK. I'm not saying he shouldn't know his child, but she should take all measures to ensure he can't take the child abroad and refuse to return him/her.

Also I think it's weird that in his culture they don't date, have sex right away, but would then expect the parents to be married, if the woman got pregnant. Is this the actual norm, something he's told her, or specific to a certain friendship group she became part of..?