Dd12 is hated by everyone😣

[Blinkingbatshit]

Dd12 is wonderful in many ways - she can be incredibly helpful (when she wants to be), works incredibly hard (at things she wants to do), can be really kind (occasionally) but she can also be self centred, over bearing, demanding…..I know lots of you with 12 year olds will be saying ‘yep, comes with the territory’ but I bet your kids still have friends despite this. Dd tries so hard (too hard maybe) to make friends - but obviously the less desirable side of her personality eventually peaks through for a moment and they back off. She is now ostracised by most of her year group - they criticise her constantly whatever she does (I have witnessed this on the side of the sports pitch), refuse to partner her or let her sit with any of them at break or lunch. She’s trying really hard but making no headway (& then confirms their reasons by stropping off). I speak with her at length about making sure she listens, behaves kindly, remains calm etc but none of it seems to help her - I genuinely can’t see anymore whether she’s just too unpleasant or if she’s being bullied terribly. Her school reports are glowing - they reference her social struggles in the form teacher section but just say they’ve no idea why and she seems a lovely girl to them…she gets on well mostly with adults. I’m not sure what I’m expecting from posting - any advice from anyone or words of wisdom? Please. I’m starting to feel desperate and am really worried about her☹️. She has always struggled socially - her siblings don’t have the same difficulty so it can’t all be cr@p parenting….

@Blinkingbatshit

I talk to her about it pretty much every day *@Oblomov21* - I’m struggling to get her to take responsibility for it. Kids today have been told incessantly that ‘others should accept them for who they are’ - Dd has taken this to mean she shouldn’t have to amend her behaviour for others. I try to explain constantly that this doesn’t mean people have to like her and that she needs to temper the way she acts - she just does not /will not ‘get it’🙈

Taking this literally is a hallmark of ASD 😂😂😂

Also OP a diagnosis is about understanding ‘how’ someone’s brain works as well. It’s not enough to simply say ‘modulate your behaviour’.

If for example someone is ASD and takes things literally (like my DP) I have to structure my explanation in a way that aligns with his logic. Highlight the contradictions. Etc.

Simply saying ‘you mustn’t do this or people won’t like you’ won’t work. Especially if it makes him dig his heels in and insist that he knows the rules, everyone else isn’t following them.

And for me with ADHD it’s no use telling me to just be organised and make timetables it doesn’t work that way! I have to manage my focus etc in a different way to bring it up when I need it, and relax letting my mind run at 1000 mph when I don’t. What works for NT’s dont work for me.

Even reading up will be helpful as a diagnosis doesn’t happen immediately and you want to help her now

I would definitely try and find someone who is very skilled with diagnosing girls and more atypical autism.

Sara here is a brilliant person to speak to and could advise:

www.shropshireautonomy.co.uk/autonomyplus/pre-diagnostic

My eldest struggles with friendships but it's hard to know if she is just difficult and stubborn. She is really hard work at home too.

Thank you @Grimbelina!

Is it possible to talk to her about how to behave when she upsets others? For example if she's gone off at friends but failed to take ownership by apologising. Perhaps she is overly sensitive and falls out with other over non events? If so, give her strategies to adopt e.g. talking or ignoring and not shouting or confronting others. Does she tell little white lies to get out of looking bad, but they affect those around her? Talk to her and see how she's reacting to situations, because this may follow her into adulthood. Any bad habits need to be nipped in the bud. My daughter has a classmate like this, and she can be lovely but very hard work socially.

@Blinkingbatshit just to emphasise that needing control can be a response to anxiety. If the world around you feels loud and chaotic then controlling things can help manage that. It's a very rational reaction. All autistic behaviours are just human behaviours: they look different to NeuroTypicals because the person is experiencing the world in a different way.

Best of luck with Dx, but do definitely get some books/web links/materials for your DD to look at in the meantime: it might help her figure out what her priorities are and how to move forward. And definitely get the school onto the bullying thing. However difficult her behaviour may appear to her peers (and nobody is saying they have to be friends with her), there is no excuse for ganging up and taking pleasure in making somebody miserable.

Hopefully if she is ND in some way she can find other girls her age/in her school who are wired in similar ways that she can connect with. Or even in different ways: my autistic DD's best friend has ADHD but they seem to get on great - as do we (with autistic traits) with her family (with ADHD traits). Autism and ADHD have a lot in common (e.g. sensory sensitivity, hyperfocus on preferred topics, difficulty with executive function) and often co-occur.

Here we go with the can't be autistic due to having empathy and eye contact. Autistic people have the same range of emotions as NT people and are as empathetic as others its just how they communicate emotions and empathy that's the difference.

As I say I'm autistic, I'm a social worker, volunteer in a charity for people with substance abuse issues and homelessness, I deliver self esteem interventions and I specialize in domestic abuse recovery. I have been described in my last work appraisal as the team peace keeper and selfless. My husband says im the most empathetic , giving person he has ever met. We are not all uptight and lacking in feeling. This is a myth.

I’m autistic and have adhd. When I was secondary school (I’m mid 30s now) I had a huge group of friends. I was obviously different but I got on well with everyone. The boys in my year group protected me and the girls included me.

Girls mask their autism. Your DD doesn’t sound like she’s masking. Also, rudeness doesn’t mean autism. 🤣

She just needs to find her tribe. Friendships, like everything else require dedication and hard work.

@Arren12

Here we go with the can't be autistic due to having empathy and eye contact. Autistic people have the same range of emotions as NT people and are as empathetic as others its just how they communicate emotions and empathy that's the difference.

As I say I'm autistic, I'm a social worker, volunteer in a charity for people with substance abuse issues and homelessness, I deliver self esteem interventions and I specialize in domestic abuse recovery. I have been described in my last work appraisal as the team peace keeper and selfless. My husband says im the most empathetic , giving person he has ever met. We are not all uptight and lacking in feeling. This is a myth.

My DP is most caring and cuddly human 😍 *wanders off to sniff him

@Arren12

Here we go with the can't be autistic due to having empathy and eye contact. Autistic people have the same range of emotions as NT people and are as empathetic as others its just how they communicate emotions and empathy that's the difference.

As I say I'm autistic, I'm a social worker, volunteer in a charity for people with substance abuse issues and homelessness, I deliver self esteem interventions and I specialize in domestic abuse recovery. I have been described in my last work appraisal as the team peace keeper and selfless. My husband says im the most empathetic , giving person he has ever met. We are not all uptight and lacking in feeling. This is a myth.

Well said. My son is autistic and the most empathetic member of our family. The one who knows how to make me feel better instantly if I've had a bad day. People have the most narrow, negative and backward view of autism. The range of personalities is just as varied as that of neurotypicals.

Forgetme- obviously all asd/adhd are different.
Possibly your friends did just put up with a lack of sensitivity.
Not all other kids are like that. We hear time and again of sen kids left out of birthday parties and excluded. It happens from reception. A lot of schools friendly behaviour is not taught (well).
Girls (maybe boys too) some look to exclude others. They dont like one thing you say and then you are odd. Some pick friends on what they can do for them.
I think it's possible there are more possibilities for friendships for sen boys than girls. As girls dont put up with people having less empathy or being silly etc. There are more asd boys and adhd so they could form a group.
My dp is very awkward and stubborn but had mates. However the possibly very autistic lad did annoy most of them missing queues to stop talking etc. They still did end up house sharing. Girls can have less social issues but still end up not included. (For eg when at uni we came to house hunting i was left out but they imcluded one girls boyfriend which was ridiculous in a house of girls if they had broken up. But years later my very popular friend also ended up excluded and that was probably as she was so popular with all the boys. She has always had loads of friends before and after this.

@HSHorror I do not have a lack of sensitivity

Maybe not. But saying you had a huge group of friends and everyone helped you whilst great and encouraging that it can be like that might come across as asd/adhd shouldnt have problems when obviously everyone is different and having both would be different to one or the other.
Also not every girl is going to mask.
Then implying you were dedicated and worked hard at friendships when others try so hard but still struggle.

I would think some autistics can come across as rude as say they might not say hello back. Or smile. Take over a conversation etc adhd interrupt . Spend a party on a phone. Subtle stuff that people dont like but not extremely rude.

@Blinkingbatshit

Thanks for responding - Yes is the answer to all the first three posts…. It is entirely possible she’s on the spectrum but if so it’s so mild (comparable to her cousin who struggles with speech, coordination etc) then is there any benefit to diagnosis - what help could she be given? I’d happily pay if there was something that might help!

Yes. Absolutely. Speaking as someone not diagnosed with autism until 40, I wish so much that it had been picked up in childhood. It would have saved me endless struggles that I blamed myself for and ruined my confidence and self esteem. She already knows she's different. If there is an explanation for that then would you really want to deprive her of the opportunity to understand herself better?

@Blinkingbatshit

Gahh! I keep losing my replies🙈! Thank you all so much for all the thoughts, ideas and suggestions - Mumsnet at its best! I will pursue an assessment for autism but even if this turns out not to be the case try and get her some further lessons/resources for social interaction. She doesn’t mean to be unpleasant but she likes to control games, situations etc, argues her point relentlessly (she cannot bear to be wrong) and takes offence far too easily…I can see why her peers get pissed of with it, I just can’t seem to get her to modify it…. She also winds people up because she is pretty capable in other areas of life - academics, sport, music come quite easily to her and that is additionally irritating to some I guess. I lay in bed with her last night and told what a brilliant adult she will be and that life will get easier….. I only hope I’m right🤞

The more I read the more she sounds like my friend’s DD - see my post on page 1.

Friend and DD are so much happier since she got her diagnosis and wish they’d got it much earlier. The DD says it helps her understand herself so much better - as part of the diagnosis she got a really long detailed report about herself which detailed the good points of being autistic as well as the not so good. And my friend is now glad that her DD can get more support at uni, and wished she could’ve also got that at school.

I also agree that a diagnosis can be so helpful. It was a shock at first. But then we realised we needed to explain how to do certain things to DS (if he wanted to do them) which other people take for granted. Social skills. Things you can and can't say to people. He got a lot of support at school, has been given extra help at uni and overall, having a diagnosis has made his life much easier.

I wouldn't say bossy and overbearing are autistic traits. I'm autistic.

I know a couple of girls like this in both dds class and they are just not nice girls. Horrible in fact. Really upset the kids for years.

School say your daughter is though so maybe it's a confidence issue or a defence strategy.

@Louise5754 You've said being bossy or rude aren't autistic traits and that you are autistic but then immediately followed it by pretty much said that the OP's daughter could just be a really nasty person which is a terrible thing to say to another parent. I know you followed it with the comment about what the school thinks but IMO the weight of the first paragraph is heavier. Unintentionally you have been a bit rude (and please don't take that as a dig at you, just trying to point out how stating a fact can come across that way).

I have a colleague who is definitely autistic (but undiagnosed, he is older). He is a lovely, kind and gentle man. He, however, finds it intolerable if you try to do a process a different way to the way he does it. He'll interrupt you and talk over you and tell you how the 'right' (ie his) way is to do it even if your way is equally successful. He really doesn't mean to be rude and knowing that he is autistic (he has a million traits, it really is perfectly obvious) I don't take it that way. However, as a child, if another child was like that I might think they were horrible and bossy.

My autistic children (and father) are not particularly bossy or rude so I do agree they aren't necessarily 'traits' as such. However my autistic family members can be incredibly hurtful in the things they unintentionally say or do (or don't do) though.

OP I was a primary school teacher for many years. I don't think I EVER came across an unpleasant child with genuinely nice parents. You sound like a lovely, concerned and caring Mum. If your other children don't struggle the way your dd does, that does suggest there is something different about her to them so I do think in seeking some expert help you are doing exactly the right thing. Sorry I couldn't be any help with a name, I'm in a completely different part of the country!

Poor girl. I wouldn't be too quick to assume it's her fault - in schools when mob mentality kicks in then no-one wants to risk befriending the kid at the bottom of the pile.

Bossy and overbearing can definitely be traits of autistic people (and of course non-autistic people too!)

Bossy and overbearing are absolutely autistic traits! I'm autistic too.

It can often be a way to control crippling anxiety and not knowing how to interact socially in the way everyone else does.

I've learnt how to do it now and everyone says how kind and caring I am. I was always kind and caring but had no clue how to express that as a child. Even my own family didn't like me much and thought I was blunt and bossy.

[quote TarzansFavouriteThong]@Louise5754 You've said being bossy or rude aren't autistic traits and that you are autistic but then immediately followed it by pretty much said that the OP's daughter could just be a really nasty person which is a terrible thing to say to another parent. I know you followed it with the comment about what the school thinks but IMO the weight of the first paragraph is heavier. Unintentionally you have been a bit rude (and please don't take that as a dig at you, just trying to point out how stating a fact can come across that way).

I have a colleague who is definitely autistic (but undiagnosed, he is older). He is a lovely, kind and gentle man. He, however, finds it intolerable if you try to do a process a different way to the way he does it. He'll interrupt you and talk over you and tell you how the 'right' (ie his) way is to do it even if your way is equally successful. He really doesn't mean to be rude and knowing that he is autistic (he has a million traits, it really is perfectly obvious) I don't take it that way. However, as a child, if another child was like that I might think they were horrible and bossy.

My autistic children (and father) are not particularly bossy or rude so I do agree they aren't necessarily 'traits' as such. However my autistic family members can be incredibly hurtful in the things they unintentionally say or do (or don't do) though.

OP I was a primary school teacher for many years. I don't think I EVER came across an unpleasant child with genuinely nice parents. You sound like a lovely, concerned and caring Mum. If your other children don't struggle the way your dd does, that does suggest there is something different about her to them so I do think in seeking some expert help you are doing exactly the right thing. Sorry I couldn't be any help with a name, I'm in a completely different part of the country![/quote]
I didn't mean to say that her daughter is bossy or nasty just that I wouldn't immediately think she is autistic. Her mum and school haven't said she is either of those things.

@Louise5754

There are some HORRIBLE children out there who make others lives a misery, I agree that most of them aren't autistic. Sorry your dc have been at the mercy of those (my son was too - that particular boy's father is a very nasty piece of work so I know where he learned that behaviour from). He and my son work at the same company now, my son is doing brilliantly and is well liked by the managers, the other boy already has his card marked for petty stealing from other employees. And so it continues from nasty father to nasty son