Dd12 is hated by everyone😣

[Blinkingbatshit]

Dd12 is wonderful in many ways - she can be incredibly helpful (when she wants to be), works incredibly hard (at things she wants to do), can be really kind (occasionally) but she can also be self centred, over bearing, demanding…..I know lots of you with 12 year olds will be saying ‘yep, comes with the territory’ but I bet your kids still have friends despite this. Dd tries so hard (too hard maybe) to make friends - but obviously the less desirable side of her personality eventually peaks through for a moment and they back off. She is now ostracised by most of her year group - they criticise her constantly whatever she does (I have witnessed this on the side of the sports pitch), refuse to partner her or let her sit with any of them at break or lunch. She’s trying really hard but making no headway (& then confirms their reasons by stropping off). I speak with her at length about making sure she listens, behaves kindly, remains calm etc but none of it seems to help her - I genuinely can’t see anymore whether she’s just too unpleasant or if she’s being bullied terribly. Her school reports are glowing - they reference her social struggles in the form teacher section but just say they’ve no idea why and she seems a lovely girl to them…she gets on well mostly with adults. I’m not sure what I’m expecting from posting - any advice from anyone or words of wisdom? Please. I’m starting to feel desperate and am really worried about her☹️. She has always struggled socially - her siblings don’t have the same difficulty so it can’t all be cr@p parenting….

What kind of behaviour is it she does that winds people up? That’s not me trying to victim blame but it could be relevant. You’ve said she is selfish, winds up siblings, and can be kind ‘occasionally’ which implies that she is unkind as well. I think it would help if you could objectively describe some of her behaviours as other kids won’t care that she can be occasionally kind - they will only remember how she has treated them.

Even if she is autistic if her behaviour is really unpleasant she does need to learn how to cope with this otherwise other children won’t want to be friends with her. So I think it depends slightly - she could be being bullied or she could be behaving badly so other children don’t want to play with her.

I wouldn’t jump straight to being on the spectrum (and knowing won’t really help anyway).
Sounds like a case of bossy girl syndrome, she gets on well with adults and wants to please them (working hard and good grades) because she respects authority - unfortunately this is because she likes authority and being “the adult” with other kids. I’m sure we’ve all know. Girls like this growing up, I don’t know why but it does seem to be a peculiar type of thing which happens amongst girls and not boys.

Of course she may be lovely in other way and to you but it does make interaction with other kids difficult - and in turn other kids can be straight up cruel once someone is identified as “the outsider” of the group

I don’t think changing schools or a diagnoses would help much. This may simply be her chill life and you should do your best to make sure it’s not too bad for her and her teachers are looking out - and that she has plenty of outside outlets and activities (since she likes working hard).

@Blinkingbatshit

Thanks for responding - Yes is the answer to all the first three posts…. It is entirely possible she’s on the spectrum but if so it’s so mild (comparable to her cousin who struggles with speech, coordination etc) then is there any benefit to diagnosis - what help could she be given? I’d happily pay if there was something that might help!

What help could she be given? Social skills training - turn taking in conversations, follow up questions and comments, validating other's emotions, emotional regulation, perspective taking (putting herself in the other person's shoes), letting small stuff go, expected behaviour in different situations, looking for mutual interests, being flexible etc

@Unreasonabubble

I'm so sorry. That's dreadful. I hope things have improved for him.

Sound like she possibility could be a high functioning autist. Many get on well with adult and struggle socially. Mine included - the checklist for autism for girls is different - many learn ‘correct’ behaviour or try eg eye contact some don’t but I have a sheet of a checklist of about 40 things my daughter does at least 30 of them. They mask the symptoms - bright gets in with adults good behaviour tick at school - what is to worry about? Except social aspects which she tries and fails and can melt down at home where it is safe. An assessment takes 3 years roughly. There is a long waiting list.

@Megalameg

I wouldn’t jump straight to being on the spectrum (and knowing won’t really help anyway). Sounds like a case of bossy girl syndrome, she gets on well with adults and wants to please them (working hard and good grades) because she respects authority - unfortunately this is because she likes authority and being “the adult” with other kids. I’m sure we’ve all know. Girls like this growing up, I don’t know why but it does seem to be a peculiar type of thing which happens amongst girls and not boys.

Of course she may be lovely in other way and to you but it does make interaction with other kids difficult - and in turn other kids can be straight up cruel once someone is identified as “the outsider” of the group

I don’t think changing schools or a diagnoses would help much. This may simply be her chill life and you should do your best to make sure it’s not too bad for her and her teachers are looking out - and that she has plenty of outside outlets and activities (since she likes working hard).

Seriously bossy girl syndrome - ?? Wft do we say bossy boy syndrome?

Autism diagnosis makes a huge difference, as does dyslexia understanding that you are normal - enables strategies to be taught to help you cope and help you understand. My son meets all the nice criteria for autism yes he masks a lot of it well. As does my daughter both are autistic I’m sure of it - both having assessments - but have a diagnosis is important for support and understanding and strategies to deal with it

I think if you want her friendships to work, you have to see it from the other girls' perspectives. Unfortunately, hanging out with someone who is self-centred, over bearing, demanding, who doesn't listen and isn't reliably kind is going to make them feel pretty crappy and trampled over so they will naturally avoid her.

If you want her to have friends and be likeable then you need to get her the help she needs to develop her social skills and treat other girls well.

@IAAP

Yes seriously (kinda). Boys that age can be absolute terrors in their own way and in some far worse ways but that type of girl who wants to be teachers pet and boss the other girls around? You rarely see boys like that.
Now that may be because other boys would hit them so they never get the chance but it’s still the truth.

Think of your own schooldays - did you really know any bossy boys like that who could act that way to the other boys? There’s a lot of bully boys but they don’t usually want to be top of class and get the blue ribbon as well. It’s a swotty know it all girl type of thing. It’s nothing terrible but it is annoying for other girls to be around.

I didn’t have friends at school but I did have a fantastic youth group with kids from different schools. Is that an option?

I work in an educational setting where I see the social groups forming and I also see who gets left out and it is typically kids who are either very quiet and don't interact much or kids who are just less good at reading social cues or immature in that they are slow to cotton on to the new social rules of middle school age- for example telling tales is very stigmatised so unless it is bullying kids need to learn to stop doing that as it really antagonizing. School is a microcosm of how life is but far more brutal as teens are not known for their empathy or maturity and many will make fun of other kids who they perceive as weaker which is about social status-they often want to distance themself from the students they perceive as having low social status
and making fun of them is one route to that and it is horrible but it is very normal and teachers are limited in how much they can even see it going on as it is often subtle. Really the truth is some kids are just not as socially skilled just as some adults struggle in that domain and I would say encourage your dd to get involved in a club where she may meet similar kids to her because those kids are more likely to accept and like her for who she is.No matter what teachers say and do they cannot make students like each other and middle school is when kids break off into tribes and they get very picky about who is in their little club. It is hard and it is tough but she may just have to go through it and she will learn to tone down the parts that may be( without her meaning to) antagonizing others. Aspergers students display this kind of response often in my experience but she does not need loads of friends- one or two good friends should be the aim if she struggles socially.

@Blinkingbatshit

Thanks for responding - Yes is the answer to all the first three posts…. It is entirely possible she’s on the spectrum but if so it’s so mild (comparable to her cousin who struggles with speech, coordination etc) then is there any benefit to diagnosis - what help could she be given? I’d happily pay if there was something that might help!

At 12 years old yes, there is definitely a benefit to diagnosis, even if it is mild.

It will help her to understand herself better, and there may also be support she could access in terms of help with developing her social skills etc.

If you can pay then you could see a speech & language therapist privately. They probably won't provide this on the NHS but there are SLT's who specialise in autism and social communication and can work with older children.

[quote Megalameg]@IAAP

Yes seriously (kinda). Boys that age can be absolute terrors in their own way and in some far worse ways but that type of girl who wants to be teachers pet and boss the other girls around? You rarely see boys like that.
Now that may be because other boys would hit them so they never get the chance but it’s still the truth.

Think of your own schooldays - did you really know any bossy boys like that who could act that way to the other boys? There’s a lot of bully boys but they don’t usually want to be top of class and get the blue ribbon as well. It’s a swotty know it all girl type of thing. It’s nothing terrible but it is annoying for other girls to be around.[/quote]
I have seen boys and girls with personalities across the whole spectrum, including "bossy boys". Go back to the 50's :)

I'd second the change schools posters. I am familar with high functioning autism, so high that you'd never guess in normal social interactions. Those people have painstakingly learnt the rules of social behaviour and probably with a lot of guiding by parents eg, "Don't look at your watch when somebody is having a serious discussion with you". "The Asperkid's (Secret) Book of Social Rules: The Handbook of Not-So-Obvious Social Guidelines for Tweens and Teens With Asperger Syndrome" by Jennifer Cook O'Toole has great reviews and tries to teach social rules. (I swear I'm not a relative or involved in publishing.)

I'd say find her a new school. Then she can start with a clean slate and, now she's a bit more mature than she was in Year 7, she might stand a better chance of making friends.

It sounds a bit like my childhood, I never mastered friendship. I often wonder if now days I'd be diagnosed with ADHD or more likely ADD.

Your poor DD.
My DD has ASD and has started to mention that no one wants to play with her and that she never gets chosen when it's time to parter up with someone. I have witnessed her social interactions on the school run and although she tries she just misses the mark. It's very difficult to watch abs age gets on much better with adults.
No answers but your daughter is not alone. I hope she finds a friendship group that accepts her where she can be happy soon

This is reminding me of my own school days. I don't have a diagnosis of anything but I remember I couldn't cope in the social environment at school at all.

My problem I think was I wasn't very good at responding to teasing or being attacked well and I'd be nasty back, bullies really seem to respond badly to this even though it should be an obvious consequence of their recent behaviour. It might be worth looking at what's going wrong for her in detail to see if there are any potential strategies.

I don't think our big Lord of the Flies type schools are a good place for everyone. You do get mob mentality and the fact that she gets on with adults does suggest that there could be different environments that she'd do better in.

Entirely possible she needs s diagnosis etc but that, while it needs to be checked out, will not be as quick as she needs, ie she needs talking to now, all of the other stuff can go on in the background). She just needs to know she is loved at home and is amazing and that people can be complicated and it's them not her. If she does well in school etc personally I'd be loathe to taking her out but it is something you could talk about. As above hope she finds her tribe, I have as in my family, I'm awkward with people and spent time wandering on my own in school but then was blessed with great friends later in secondary, more in college and now I'm just surrounded by the best people

Got to say, your description could have been of my oldest niece a few years ago.
She was diagnosed with Asperger's (before it stopped being called that) aged 7 and in all honesty, knowing that she was ND did help with understanding why she was "different" and socially awkward, but it didn't help with other girls' behaviours towards her. She was just overwhelming!

Also very intelligent (which has never been something to increase popularity!) and although she had 1 friend, she also had an "enemy" who liked to turn everyone against her. She moved schools to get away from this girl, and did better at the next place, but it didn't really improve her friendship rates.

What DID help her was getting a dog - she has her own dog, takes her to dog training and shows etc. - and this has given her both companionship and focus.

She still has some issues with some teachers (but is nearly out of school so hurrah!) but most of them are understanding of her extra needs and help her rather than otherwise.

A diagnosis is worth getting, IMO.

Does she have to stay at this school? Sounds like bullying.

She's being bullied. Don't let your focus on your DD's behaviour blind you to that. This has gone way beyond children politely avoiding her because she's an awkward soul.

I'd start looking at moving schools. Work on your DD's behaviour and understanding social cues, but honestly I doubt anything is going to get better at this school, especially if the school's attitude is to victim-blame. Given they're a school and used to dealing with young people, it's not too much to ask that they have some experience in supporting children who are having problems with gelling with their peers rather than just writing them off as 'difficult'. This does not sound like the right place for your DD. Whatever you do, don't let her endure the next 6 years in misery in this place.

[quote Megalameg]@IAAP

Yes seriously (kinda). Boys that age can be absolute terrors in their own way and in some far worse ways but that type of girl who wants to be teachers pet and boss the other girls around? You rarely see boys like that.
Now that may be because other boys would hit them so they never get the chance but it’s still the truth.

Think of your own schooldays - did you really know any bossy boys like that who could act that way to the other boys? There’s a lot of bully boys but they don’t usually want to be top of class and get the blue ribbon as well. It’s a swotty know it all girl type of thing. It’s nothing terrible but it is annoying for other girls to be around.[/quote]
There are boys like that, difference is boys who are bossy, intelligent and want to be top of the class are generally praised for their leadership skills.

Whether you persue an official diagnosis or not Blinkingbatshit you may find that social stories and other interventions designed for people with ASD would help. I would also consider moving school but work on her social skills first, perhaps joining other clubs so she can develop her social skills first before being in a new situation which will be stressful.

Ahhh!! Just lost my reply and am tight for time😣 - will come back later this morning!… but thank you for the suggestions like Social Thinking and finding an SLT who specialises in social interactions, will look into these…
We have already done what we can in other ways - she moved primary school (& has gone up to senior with a lot of the kids from there)….moving again is difficult as we’re rural and the next option is an hour away (& costs £££!!) but I’m bearing it in mind. To be honest I’d home school but she makes so much of the extra curricular stuff it’d be a real shame for her to miss out (Eg there are no local kids choirs she could join instead etc). She does 2 sports outside of school - but girls from school have recently turned up at one and are making it difficult (again this is the only option for 20miles, she does it 4 times a week so we can’t move). The other club is great - she gets on fine but I’m not sure close friendships will be formed. I’ll get back onto her form teacher and cc in the head of pastoral - he’s meant to be very good🤞🤞….

If I want to go private who do I go to to start the ball rolling for autism assessment?

My DS got a diagnosis of ASD after struggling socially for years. It's been absolutely wonderful for him to understand why he finds social stuff difficult. He's nearly 16 now. Last week he went to a party with a small group of friends and actually enjoyed himself. I had a good cry. Age 11-14 was definitely the trickiest time for him.

It's not really changed the support he has in school (which is mainly academic although he's very bright), but it has helped him to understand himself immeasurably, and that's been really valuable.