Dd12 is hated by everyone😣

[Blinkingbatshit]

Dd12 is wonderful in many ways - she can be incredibly helpful (when she wants to be), works incredibly hard (at things she wants to do), can be really kind (occasionally) but she can also be self centred, over bearing, demanding…..I know lots of you with 12 year olds will be saying ‘yep, comes with the territory’ but I bet your kids still have friends despite this. Dd tries so hard (too hard maybe) to make friends - but obviously the less desirable side of her personality eventually peaks through for a moment and they back off. She is now ostracised by most of her year group - they criticise her constantly whatever she does (I have witnessed this on the side of the sports pitch), refuse to partner her or let her sit with any of them at break or lunch. She’s trying really hard but making no headway (& then confirms their reasons by stropping off). I speak with her at length about making sure she listens, behaves kindly, remains calm etc but none of it seems to help her - I genuinely can’t see anymore whether she’s just too unpleasant or if she’s being bullied terribly. Her school reports are glowing - they reference her social struggles in the form teacher section but just say they’ve no idea why and she seems a lovely girl to them…she gets on well mostly with adults. I’m not sure what I’m expecting from posting - any advice from anyone or words of wisdom? Please. I’m starting to feel desperate and am really worried about her☹️. She has always struggled socially - her siblings don’t have the same difficulty so it can’t all be cr@p parenting….

She sounds similar to my dd (now 17), she’s never really have more than 2 friends and one of those is a boy who is very similar to her. My dd is lovely and kind, gets on really well with adults but she can be very annoying, she has Aspergers and can get fixated on things which can be annoying for people around her. It’s been horrible watching her struggle through school. She’s now in her last year of A level and has just made some new friends, I just wish she had more friends a long time ago.

Please don’t tell your daughter she needs to change to make people like her, this will just damage any confidence she has left and she will think she’s the one with the issues. She just hasn’t found her people yet. DD’s friends are mainly people similar to her, some have ASD/ADHD, others are a bit quirky. It was hard finding these people when she was younger and she felt different and left out. I did tell her to tone some of her behaviours down a little but not to change, she is who she is and she’s not a bad person.

There is a lot you can do for kids once they have a diagnosis, it opens doors to help services. She could probably benefit from a friends for life group (where they teach social skills to young people who miss social cues). And you get support too.

@50ShadesOfCatholic that would have been a godsend for us. I still feel terrible about failing her.

Get her assessed for ASD and ADHD, and get her out of that school.

OP - you asked about a Private diagnosis route? Dr Lucy Brown-Wright, Dr Rakendu Suren. Start there.
Also, look for a good local adolescent counsellor in your area in the meantime. She will probably kick against it and hate a few, but if you work through them systematically she may find one who she clicks with and if she does then it can make a world of difference.

Please don’t tell your daughter she needs to change to make people like her, this will just damage any confidence she has left and she will think she’s the one with the issues. She just hasn’t found her people yet.

I think this genuinely depends on the daughter’s behaviour. That’s why I asked upthread for some examples of what she does objectively rather than things like ‘occasionally kind.’

I’m not saying she should change, but if she is objectively unpleasant other children can’t be expected to tolerate that. With my son who is autistic we do need to prep him for social situations and use different social stories. I don’t want him to change to fit in with others but realistically I’m aware that if he drones on for 20 minutes about something he is interested in then it’s not fair to expect another child to stand smiling when they aren’t having a chance to speak. The other child would understandably think ‘stuff this I’m bored stiff!’ Same with if he wants to be in charge of games all the time and tell others how to play - it’s not fun for other children so we need to support him to understand this.

In this case it could be either way - she could be unpleasant because they’re ostracising her or they could be ostracising her because she’s unpleasant.

[quote WouldBeGood]@50ShadesOfCatholic that would have been a godsend for us. I still feel terrible about failing her.[/quote]
Oh it's so sad that so, so many people have not had the support they've needed to access education and a social life. Outrageous actually.

@Blinkingbatshit

I’ve been dealing with her form teacher so far. I think I probably need to go the head of pastoral - it’s the ostracising that worries me too…it is indeed mob mentality and she’s the year group runt, it’s just awful 😢

“Year group runt”? That’s a harsh term. Is she physically tiny? August Birthday ? My DS - July birthday- was a really late physical developer ( As was I) Could her undeveloped stature/ physique be the reason?

Secondary school I agree is horrible compared to Primary.

If you suspect neurodiversity speak to learning support. They can also help with social issues. You don’t deceive anything other than social issues but maybe there is more you have t said, it’s definitely worth speaking to them.
However, she is being bullied and there’s no excuse for that, you need to address that urgently with the school. She’s being excluded socially, talked about to the extent that you’ve overheard it. Probably one group have targeted her and the rest are too scared to stand up to it.

I'm reading all these feeling so sad - my boy (who's 11, July birthday, physically short and stocky like his dad) is NT but a full-on card-carrying geek.
Thank goodness he found his "people" early and there is a little clique of hardcore geekery that hangs out in the library together and DGAF about the comments. One of the girls suggested to my boy yesterday that "if he was so interested in space why doesn't he go there and never come back". He has a wonderfully expressive eye-roll...

I agree about the assessments, but also - I hope she finds her people, soon.

Look on amazon for social skills workbooks, some look good others less so, so read the reviews.
Do any colleges nearby offer a 14-16 provision? Could that be the plan, a more mature environment so may do better?
School sounds awful, if you are in a position to do so, I'd home educate and work on social skills via a few books, attend groups, a sport outside of school is great for boosting confidence. Maybe scouts too? Groups where she can put into practice what she is learning, boost confidence etc.
Then perhaps join the 14-16 provision at college when she is old enough.

@UnderTheSkyInsideTheSea

Get her assessed for ASD and ADHD, and get her out of that school.

This!

OP my dd is 11. She was diagnosed with ASD just before she started secondary. She has high functioning ASD so is doing brilliantly at school. She is good with friends 1 on 1 or 1 on 2 but in groups she really struggles and has social anxiety. Kids with ASD can miss social cues and need help with peer relationships. We talked about this at length when we had the diagnosis and we discussed ways she could form good relationships and keep them with her peers. It made a lot of difference having the diagnosis. Girls mask very well at school which is why many girls are not diagnosed until later on in their lives.

I thought of ADHD as soon as I read your post. My 8 year old is being assessed, she has friendship problems which are becoming more apparent as she gets older. I can actually see why, she is “a bit much” - despite being a very kind girl. She tries to control the way other people play games, is easily offended, is possessive of girls she sees as “best friends”… and the other children just naturally back off. This then affects her self esteem further and actually makes her behaviour worse, it’s a vicious circle.

My DD won’t get an ASD diagnosis I don’t expect as she doesn’t have any special interests. She has does have sensory difficulties though.

In our case, I am very hopeful that she will be prescribed medication for ADHD. I take it, after a late diagnosis as an adult, and it definitely helps with my relationships with others, particularly in the workplace, as I now have a “pause” button and am able to keep my mouth shut at times or at least take a few seconds to filter my words before they come out!

This might be a controversial thing to say, but I think ADHD is a more helpful diagnosis as there is the option of medication. It helps me so much with sensory overload, it feels like someone has actually turned the background noise down to a manageable level.

My consultant has also referred me for an ASD assessment and feels sure about it - but I am glad I don’t have just that diagnosis on its own or I wouldn’t have the medication. There is such an overlap between the two that I find myself wondering if there are autistic people who could really benefit from the medication but just can’t access it to try.

@MrsRussell

I'm reading all these feeling so sad - my boy (who's 11, July birthday, physically short and stocky like his dad) is NT but a full-on card-carrying geek. Thank goodness he found his "people" early and there is a little clique of hardcore geekery that hangs out in the library together and DGAF about the comments. One of the girls suggested to my boy yesterday that "if he was so interested in space why doesn't he go there and never come back". He has a wonderfully expressive eye-roll...

I agree about the assessments, but also - I hope she finds her people, soon.

Being self-centred, overbearing and demanding won’t get her any friends though. Even among other ND people.

I have ADHD,DP autism. Half our friend group also ND. However there are a couple of autistic men nobody wants to play video games with because they throw a fit when they don’t get their way. And force everyone else to play what they want.

Get her assessments OP but also read up on autism adhd etc and see if there are ways you can help your daughter as well. I implemented lots of things I read online before I got my ADHD diagnosis and they helped.

You have to work out what exactly the problem is.

This was me. Exhausted myself trying and failing to fit in even though I pained myself to say/do/wear the right things. Very much made to feel like all this was of my own making and to try harder to change to fit in. But because my results, etc. were good there was no cause for concern, apparently. Nobody cared as long as I was doing well academically.

Got my ADHD diagnosis aged 44, seeking one for autism. But the scars from those days run deep. I still internalise that everything is my fault - that was definitely the narrative in the 80s and 90s.

Both my children have ASD and one has ADHD (just waiting on diagnosis for the other) - the traits you describe cross both conditions, unsurprising as they are co-morbid. I know diagnosis has helped both of my dc. A while ago I was clearing some stuff in my dd's room and found a notepad - I flicked through it thinking it was a sketch pad and found instead it was a diary from years ago (she's an adult now). Obviously I should have not read it but I did read a few heartbreaking entries full of self loathing and confusion about why she felt so different to everyone else. I KNOW that understanding her conditions now have brought her a lot of peace and acceptance (initially she was quite angry) and her mental health has improved a lot since those years.

Your dd won't be blind to her failure in making/keeping friends or her lack of popularity. She will be angry and confused which in turn makes her stroppy and defensive and then people don't want to be friends with her and so it goes on and on.

My advice would be to take her to see a psychologist. Have her assessed and then go from there. If she doesn't get a diagnosis she may still be able to access some support in social skills.

Also totally agree with the earlier poster who talked about 'mild' autism FFS I know people are affected differently by it. I understand some people are non-verbal and have terrible struggles BUT you can't be a bit autistic, you are autistic or you are not autistic.

If you are autistic you are a round peg in a square holed world. Being able to mask effectively so that you seem like a square peg like everyone else just means you are good at acting. On the inside you are still often confused, often frightened, second guessing yourself and struggling to understand things that everyone else seems to 'get'. So don't EVER describe autism as mild. It's not. It's a permanent struggle. And don't even start me on 'high functioning' - I reluctantly use that term occasionally to describe my dc because people are reassured by it . What it actually means is 'the autistic person is capable of pretending well enough and follow societal rules they don't necessarily understand in order to stop other people feeling uncomfortable'. So yes, my child probably won't make you feel uncomfortable (phew) but the reverse won't necessarily be true...

I was that girl and I was miserable for all of secondary school. Nothing especially "wrong" with me (maybe I'm a tiny bit on the spectrum but isn't that the point of calling it a spectrum? We're all on it somewhere!) but bullied and ignored for years. My self esteem has not recovered, and will not now as I'm in my mid 40's!

Can you take her out of the school and let her start over in a smaller, more pastorally oriented school? Do you have the resources to send her to an independent school where they have the time and energyy for her?

Yr 7 and 8 can be quite tricky years as they all settle in. If by yr 9 nothings changed then move Schools so she can start afresh without all the baggage.

Your last paragraph explains it perfectly, @TarzansFavouriteThong, and the last sentence particularly strikes a chord.

maybe I'm a tiny bit on the spectrum but isn't that the point of calling it a spectrum? We're all on it somewhere

NO! We are NOT all on the spectrum. The autistic spectrum is a spectrum for autistic people, it does not encompass the entire spectrum.

I know you are not intending to be rude, but it’s a really unhelpful and damaging myth.

There is no such thing as being mildly autistic, you either are or not. Every autistic person has struggles in different ways to differing degrees.

I'm autistic so is my dd. I did not realize nor did anyone else that I was autistic when I was a child. I was actually very social and confident. Other kids were kind to me unlike your poor daughter and school peers did actually try include me but I was different and I struggled internally to relate to them. I would often disappear at breaks rather than hang out. Id turn up late to school to avoid the social side of walking in. I found these social interactions exhausting and just didn't want to keep damaging my MH trying to fit in. I did have a few 'friends' but this crowd were probably not the best fit and we smoked and skipped school often. I was never close to any of them, always in the outside. It really damaged my MH and I had a breakdown in my teens.

My daughter who as I say is autistic struggles to budge and take others into consideration. She has her view and sticks with it. We are lucky so far that as she's only 8 she has some friends but we are quickly seeing a devide start. Other kids just end up walking away from her because she is so one sided to her in stance and does meltdown. There has been occasions of the whole class laughed at her. It is like mob mentality yes. Once one does it and a few follow it quickly spreads.

Having a diagnosis is worth it. One for your daughters own identity and acceptance of herself and two because school can and should put pastoral support in place. They can create friendship building groups and lessons on how to be friends etc they should be doing this anyway as their duty of care to all children but they are more likely to do so with a diagnosis.

You will have a fight on your hands for a diagnosis but stand firm and strong and push hard. Girls on the spectrum are notoriously missed and misdiagnosed. Luckily we are beginning to understand them more but we still have a way to go.

Having that 'label' is so freeing and allows you to forgive yourself.

My thought is like other pp where is the school in this? My son (who copes fine but definitely has some traits common to people with autism) struggled when he moved to secondary school. As soon as school aware we had head of year and SENCO involved and their small but important interventions had such a positive impact and he’s now totally settled in. The mindset has completely changed from when I was at school )and had similar issues). They definitely viewed it as their responsibility to help him with emotional pastoral care and they had the experience and were in the position to make a really big impact.
Good luck with it all. I moved school two years into secondary in the end which really helped.

Books on the Rules of friendship would help.

The Science of Making Friends is good

Wish I’d had it! It’s realistic about reputation issues....

She might have Aspergers syndrome? Often they are articulate, high-functioning and of normal or above average intelligence, but still score quite high on the spectrum.