Dd12 is hated by everyone😣

[Blinkingbatshit]

Dd12 is wonderful in many ways - she can be incredibly helpful (when she wants to be), works incredibly hard (at things she wants to do), can be really kind (occasionally) but she can also be self centred, over bearing, demanding…..I know lots of you with 12 year olds will be saying ‘yep, comes with the territory’ but I bet your kids still have friends despite this. Dd tries so hard (too hard maybe) to make friends - but obviously the less desirable side of her personality eventually peaks through for a moment and they back off. She is now ostracised by most of her year group - they criticise her constantly whatever she does (I have witnessed this on the side of the sports pitch), refuse to partner her or let her sit with any of them at break or lunch. She’s trying really hard but making no headway (& then confirms their reasons by stropping off). I speak with her at length about making sure she listens, behaves kindly, remains calm etc but none of it seems to help her - I genuinely can’t see anymore whether she’s just too unpleasant or if she’s being bullied terribly. Her school reports are glowing - they reference her social struggles in the form teacher section but just say they’ve no idea why and she seems a lovely girl to them…she gets on well mostly with adults. I’m not sure what I’m expecting from posting - any advice from anyone or words of wisdom? Please. I’m starting to feel desperate and am really worried about her☹️. She has always struggled socially - her siblings don’t have the same difficulty so it can’t all be cr@p parenting….

@Cattitudes

No teachers pet boys who are bossy are not praised by other boys for their “leadership” skills. They’re mocked and bullied for being nerds. It may be cruel but it’s true.
Trying to somehow say that both girls and boys do it but boys are praised for it is just a straight up delusion which comes from having to see sexism to the point you invent it.

@Blinkingbatshit please don't be fooled in to the 'she's only got mild autism' camp.

Someone who looks 'mild' just means their autism is mildly affecting the people around them. But it could be destroying them from the inside. Having no peer group and failing at all social interactions will scar you for years. Girls with autism can have high rates of mental health issues, self harm and school refusal.

Ds is 11. Extremely bright, chatty and bright and similarly failed socially and then school fell apart for him. He now goes to specialist school where they teach our children what other children just 'get'. He's so much more proficient at social communication already but it'll be a life long battle for him.

Please don't brush this off as mild - that's just what you see.

@violetanemone

It’s the reality - in any era. But deluded yourself that boys and girls are exactly the same if it makes you feel enlightened lol.

I don’t think diagnosis (if there is even anything to diagnose) will help her day to day, but I’m aware lots of people who feel unhappy with themselves do find it useful. If she was mine I would find activities outside of school where she can mix with a totally different set of children. Socially clubs after school once a week are much much easier and she can practice her skills there. Contrary to popular belief school days are rarely the happiest days of your life and those that swing through school popular and in the group don’t necessarily live happily ever after. Love her how she is, don’t try to “fix” her, and keep her company through the harder bits.

Where she has autism or not, your Dd needs to speak to someone to help her understand why she struggles socially and how she can alter some of her behaviour so she doesn’t upset others. You say she shows headstrong and selfish behaviour and has strops. This can’t be nice for others. It may be hard work, but hopefully your Dd can pay close attention to her anti-social interactions and see how she can change this.

*whether not where

I think that kids who are complete brats at home are not always the same elsewhere. The teachers are a good measure of how she is behaving at school and just because she behaves like that at home I wouldn't presume she is doing the same at school. To me it sounds like bullying

does she make the most of how she looks, nice hair cut?

@Blinkingbatshit

Thing is I’ve heard that if you get a diagnosis School use it as an excuse as to why it’s the victim’s ‘fault’ rather an addressing the behaviour of the others….whereas if she’s considered ‘Nt’ they are more likely to help…as I type I know that sounds barking..

Who told you that??

I didn't get bullied or left out but I was never popular, just managed to hang on in to the crowd.
But I was bossy - not in a showy way but as the oldest of 3 in a poorly functioning household I felt it was good to give advice, rather than empathise, 'help' people who had problems. I also until relatively recently (in my 50s) realised that telling the truth isn't a requirement in day to day life. I also have only really felt relaxed in the company of older people. Not the case so much now but I'm nearly 70!!
I would see if you could get some counselling to work out how to learn more acceptable behaviour, more acceptable in our flawed society. Surely being able to talk honestly to someone might help her feel better about herself.
Also encourage anything she can get v good at - a sport, a hobby, an outdoor skill. So there is something rewarding and fulfilling in her life and friendships aren't the only thing.

Sounds like bullying to me too. Secondary can be really horrible, especially year 7 and 8. Did she have friends at primary? There’s an awful lot of children who go through similar at some point. They don’t all have autism

[quote Megalameg]@IAAP

Yes seriously (kinda). Boys that age can be absolute terrors in their own way and in some far worse ways but that type of girl who wants to be teachers pet and boss the other girls around? You rarely see boys like that.
Now that may be because other boys would hit them so they never get the chance but it’s still the truth.

Think of your own schooldays - did you really know any bossy boys like that who could act that way to the other boys? There’s a lot of bully boys but they don’t usually want to be top of class and get the blue ribbon as well. It’s a swotty know it all girl type of thing. It’s nothing terrible but it is annoying for other girls to be around.[/quote]
Actually, my ds is exactly like this. And it's because he has ADHD.

I think without education and understanding of what neurobiological conditions are, how they affect the brain, and subsequently behaviour, you should perhaps not leave unhelpful comments. And while not all children with social struggles are neurodiverse, there are normally reasons for them that are not the fault of the child, which is what you seem to he suggesting

Would second the comment that secondary can be 'brutal'. Then there are the pressures on young people and school staff due to the cuts and the pandemic.

Mine is out of it now, and I'm not sorry.
Not sure about moving schools. Mine had a spectacularly bad start at secondary, was bullied etc.

Then we had a change of head. At the start of that new year things changed.

Can only say what helped with us:

Fostering an interest they might have. Once again sounds obvious but performing arts really helped us. Both in terms of providing an alternative community and movement. I would really recommend the Pauline Quirke Academy if you have one, Saturday mornings. Seems expensive on the face of it, but they do have scholarships for people on a low income with talent.

Taking part in group things like that may help to strengthen confidence. Sometimes performing arts things can be more forgiving for someone who is neuro diverse.

Second. It's my belief that they only really need one or two good friends they can rely on in secondary school.

So think local. I'm sure you've done this already but foster their emerging friendships. Invite them round. These years will be and are a rollercoaster of emotions anyway.

Try not to get too wrapped up with the rollercoaster but stay on the level yourself as there will be massive ups and downs.

Re: diagnosis. Don't know what your resources are available but remember even if you do get a diagnosis you and DD still have choices about how much you disclose.

[quote purpleflowerlegs]@Blinkingbatshit please don't be fooled in to the 'she's only got mild autism' camp.

Someone who looks 'mild' just means their autism is mildly affecting the people around them. But it could be destroying them from the inside. Having no peer group and failing at all social interactions will scar you for years. Girls with autism can have high rates of mental health issues, self harm and school refusal.

Ds is 11. Extremely bright, chatty and bright and similarly failed socially and then school fell apart for him. He now goes to specialist school where they teach our children what other children just 'get'. He's so much more proficient at social communication already but it'll be a life long battle for him.

Please don't brush this off as mild - that's just what you see. [/quote]
Absolutely this.

It may look 'mild' on the outside. But you don't know how hard she's trying on the inside. Girls in particular mask a lot, so others don't always see just how much they're struggling.

I was diagnosed Autistic when I was 32. I really struggled when I was younger but even more so as I got to my teens. It was horrible. I didn't understand many social interactions and subtleties and ended up in some very dodgy situations. I struggled with friendships and was taken advantage of a lot.
Then when I started working, again that was a nightmare, and I was often bullied.

When I was diagnosed so many people would say 'well it must be mild' because I have a professional job, and not everyone saw my struggles. They didn't see how hard it was for me to pretend to be 'normal' and how exhausted I'd be from it.

Getting her support now is the best thing you can do. There are many private psychologists who can assess her. Maybe look at ones who specialise in Autism (especially in girls as this can present differently to what is stereotypically seen in boys).
And speak to the school about the bullies because it's unacceptable she's being treated that way.

Don’t underestimate how much bullying will impact on her behaviour. Her difficulties could be as pp say but also if she is unhappy then she will find it hard to be pleasant.

Which is fair enough

@Unreasonabubble

I need to speak to you more tomorrow as at this moment in time I am really tired.

Your DD is the year group runt, so was my DS and the little shits in his class promised him they would be friends with him if he jumped out of a two storey window. He did that. He did that. He did not go back to that school ever again.

This is heartbreaking. I hope he is happier having left

Loads of 12 year old girls are stroppy and difficult yet have loads of friends. I know a few children (including my own) who have had glowing teacher reports but the same level of total social rejection at that age and it was for three reasons. They were either autistic, exceptionally intelligent, gay or a combination of the three. There's some sort of normie radar that rejects anyone who is slightly 'off' at that age and it usually settles down in a couple of years and they find their crowd. But I would want to know the school is intervening if your daughter is being ostracised. That is bullying and needs to be worked through with a teacher who can help them all develop better social skills.

@5zeds

I don’t think diagnosis (if there is even anything to diagnose) will help her day to day, but I’m aware lots of people who feel unhappy with themselves do find it useful. If she was mine I would find activities outside of school where she can mix with a totally different set of children. Socially clubs after school once a week are much much easier and she can practice her skills there. Contrary to popular belief school days are rarely the happiest days of your life and those that swing through school popular and in the group don’t necessarily live happily ever after. Love her how she is, don’t try to “fix” her, and keep her company through the harder bits.

Ia with this. I understand that your daughter is unhappy and that that is hard to see, but I would avoid over-focussing on/making a big deal out of this. Just let her get on with it and treat her as you usually would. Hopefully she will eventually learn to tone down some of her negative behaviours and make some friends. You only need one!

DS has a "friend" who is on the periphery of his friendship group.
From an adult perspective he is lovely. He is though unpopular among his peers.

DS likes spending short amounts of time with him (eg sports related), but finds him annoying ("a bit much") for longer periods of time, eg he wouldn't invite him round to our house on his own, but might as part of a larger group.
I know DS' friends' Mum worries about her son, and he has been ostracised from other friendship groups, and I do encourage DS to be kind.
DS doesn't want a closer friendship though as he finds him "annoying" in close quarters (too keen, talks too much, immature etc).
I am glad DS keeps the friendship as it is going, although I don't think it is enough for his friend.
I think friend is on the spectrum, high functioning, although it is obviously not my business to diagnose.

I wouldn’t jump straight to being on the spectrum (and knowing won’t really help anyway)

This is such an ignorant and damaging comment.

A diagnosis can make a massive difference, even just knowing why you feel SO different all of the time

Of course it may not be autism, but if it is, it’s definitely worth knowing

I'm having an autism diagnosis at the moment and I'm 28.

I was exactly like your DD I went to 2 secondary schools and a spell in a mental health ward where I tried to end my life. I hated school so much thing that helped me was going to air cadets, I made loads of friends outside of school and went on trips all the time and there was activities most weekends there was strict rules and I thrived in that environment.

@Blinkingbatshit

Thanks for responding - Yes is the answer to all the first three posts…. It is entirely possible she’s on the spectrum but if so it’s so mild (comparable to her cousin who struggles with speech, coordination etc) then is there any benefit to diagnosis - what help could she be given? I’d happily pay if there was something that might help!

My dd13 is a bit similar. She also had some low mood and anxiety over lockdown which prompted us to get some private psychology input. And that was how we started to think she might be on the autistic spectrum. If she is then she’s high functioning or it’s ‘mild’ or however you want to put it, but we are on the waiting list for a private asd assessment through Lorna wing centre.

Your post resonated with me as dd also ‘tries too hard’ with friends, finds it hard to listen and talks over people/interrupts. She can also be very ‘single track’ in her conversation. It’s hard because she is becoming painfully aware of this (and her ‘friends’ comment on it) but finds it hard to change.

I was bossy and extremely clever only child who struggled a bit socially. Through primary school I only had people I was vaguely friendly with - until the juniors I didn't really see the point of friendship at all. Other childrens seemed silly, I didn't really get them and I preferred adults.

Obviously I had enough skills to gradually work out the social rules and how to fit in. Probably trying a bit too hard to fit in at times. But by 13 (while still suffering from name calling, mostly from a group of boys in the class) I had a best friend for the first time, and at sixth form college I had a really good group of friends who I'm still friendly with now. And that boys had no problem with me, quite the reverse in fact. And this bossy girly swot became a legal director.

So for your daughter it is a social learning curve - but don't lose the assertiveness! She will learn in her own time to channel it positively.

She is also experiencing terrible bullying though and the school must absolutely crack down on it.

Your poor DD

I know 3 children who’ve struggled with having no friends at all. Their stories in case you spot anything of interest to your DD’s situation:

1. The saddest story first. Friend’s DD, was always on the outside of social groups at primary school, but the school facilitated friendships and it wasn’t until she went to high school that the full extent of the problem became apparent. Started with no bullying but no friends. The school fed back that she didn’t seem to understand the difference between important rules and minor rules and was reporting all infringements to staff and lecturing fellow students on their behaviour. She also appeared unaware that there was a whole other layer of unwritten social rules. School offered help. Mum refused because her DD was the victim and ‘all those children will be emptying your bins in 10 years’. Moved to another school. Same problem. Moved to another school. Same problem. Now 16, still attending school #3 but part time, selectively mute, living as a trans boy and being assessed for ASD

1. DD’s friend. Diagnosed with ADHD mid primary school, parents also suspect (mild) ASD. Noticeably younger interests and behaviour compared to the other children and always struggled to find friends. Little active bullying, but the other children avoided her and didn’t want to be friends with her. No friends at all at high school. Met DD online and formed a friendship despite a 4 year age gap. Has another friend outside of school through a hobby. Aged 18 now and working/studying childcare. Still good friends with DD, despite the age gap!

1. Boy in DS’s year at school. On the fringe of friendship groups since primary school. Started what we thought was bullying DS at high school (punching, pinching, shoving, taking belongings). I complained to the school. School said we think there is more to this, can we try mediation. They mediate and it turns out the boy is desperate to be friends with DS and the behaviour is a strange mix of attention seeking and failed attempts at banter. School presumably continue to work with him on this as behaviour slowly improves. Skip forwards 2 years and I wouldn’t say they’re great friends, but DS happily tolerates him!

DD struggled like this throughout school and I tried so hard to get her help, but was always dismissed as neurotic/it’s just a phase, etc.

After a truly miserable time she’s finally been assessed as having ASD, and it’s such a relief for her to know there’s an explanation.

I feel we’ve been failed by the system. Please @Blinkingbatshit organise an assessment and push for help now.