Struggling to understand Dniece and DD 's feelings against supporting Movember

[thecatmother]

Dniece is visiting this weekend and was telling us last night that herself and a number of female colleagues had been against celebrating Movember at their office due to the recent events (metoo, kidnapping, murders). My DD thinks the same, basically no need to support or celebrate any male related causes due to what is happening in the world.
I am so saddened by their extreme outlook. They both have very warm and loving relationships with their fathers and grandfathers , and they both admit that one day they want to get married.
My explanation that the world was very similar when I was their age , if not worse (the 90s), did cause a bit of a heated discussion.
I am not getting this hostility, especially from 2 rather privileged young women: they have good jobs, had good education, have supportive families, big groups of friends...things that a lot of people do not have. I did get a little cross with them, and suggested instead of being so unwavering in their opinions to go and volunteer for a day in a hospice and meet the people who would benefit from them supporting Movember.
Am I too old, too harsh? Probably both! Apologies for the rant.

I don't really get their logic? What was their arguement against it?

They are being ridiculous
Men are not the enemy
Some men have issues, same as some women
I think the human race would find it hard to survive without men
They need to give their head a wobble

Isn’t it a cancer awareness thing? Hardly celebrating men.

Why get cross because they choose not to support a charity?

I get their reasoning tbh, when various awareness campaigns have been going on men have been NAMALTing everywhere and it's been exhausting and women are getting fed up of not being heard.

Ultimately guiltily someone into supporting a charity just because you do is pretty crappy behaviour.

@AchyFlower

I don't really get their logic? What was their arguement against it?

That being a male is a privilege, and no need to celebrate. I honestly couldn't get through to them, was so bloody frustrating. Like I was speaking a different language to them.

My point was that supporting a charity is not equal to giving a green light to any abuse against women.

I didn't think it was celebrating people who identify as men though. Just trying to raise money for charities that support male mental health/cancer etc. Interesting to hear that it's seen as negative. I guess the whole health system is probably skewed in male's favour but I still struggle to see why charity fundraising is seen as a bad thing.

Is there a women's charity month?

Do you mean they won’t be giving money to that particular charity?

@thecatmother

My point was that supporting a charity is not equal to giving a green light to any abuse against women.

Yes. It's a bit antiman. I expect it's a more nuanced argument than it first seems.

Anyone who is ‘celebrating’ Movember is doing it wrong.

I too am baffled by their reaction. In Movember men grow moustaches to raise awareness of men’s health issues like prostate cancer, suicide and murder. (Eg. For every woman murdered, 3 men are murdered). So as women, they don’t have to do anything to celebrate it. What do they mean they are against it? They surely don’t want to stop men in their office growing a moustache?

I get the metoo/kidnapping/murders but you can care about both women’s issues and men’s issues? It’s not an either or situation or an us vs them situation.

They are allowed to have their reactions and responses at what is going on.

Why shouldn’t they be angry? Maybe the men in their offices have not been attentive to the spiking scandal, maybe they spend all day spouting NAMALT when women are upset about Wayne C, that awful murdering raping necrophile, etc etc. Maybe they want, for now, to put all their charitable effort into Women’s Aid or something.

And frankly, that is a defensible decision.

Why are you so invested in making them agree with you? And so angry?

@Pumperthepumper

Do you mean they won’t be giving money to that particular charity?

The conversation started when DN shared that at their office they celebrated everything that falls under diversity and inclusion: religious festivals, international Women's day, mothers day, fathers day, pride, every awareness months. They even supported the infant loss and miscarriage week, which I found particularly touching. So the Movember sounded like a logical thing for them to support, they publish on their notice board a story a week from one of the male colleagues. Regretfully, my DN thinks that it is inappropriate and she is not alone at her office. They are making a point about not donating and I suppose loudly ignoring the Movember. She didn't like it when I disagreed with her, but my DD "gets" why my DN feels this way.

@PlanDeRaccordement

I too am baffled by their reaction. In Movember men grow moustaches to raise awareness of men’s health issues like prostate cancer, suicide and murder. (Eg. For every woman murdered, 3 men are murdered). So as women, they don’t have to do anything to celebrate it. What do they mean they are against it? They surely don’t want to stop men in their office growing a moustache?

I get the metoo/kidnapping/murders but you can care about both women’s issues and men’s issues? It’s not an either or situation or an us vs them situation.

I think it’s more about choosing which charities to support. I personally don’t give money to any charities with a religious slant, that’s my choice because it’s my money.

@thecatmother

Ah I see. It doesn’t really fall into line with those categories though, does it? IWD isn’t the female equivalent of Movember.

@Pumperthepumper
Yes, if it’s just that they don’t wish to donate their time or money, that is absolutely fine. But if they mean to protest and try and stop others from doing so....that would not be reasonable in my opinion.

Yes. Their not just saying "I prefer to donate to breast cancer charities", they're saying "the office shouldn't support charities for men's cancers because men are shits"

My dad died of prostate cancer. Did he not deserve to benefit from donations to prostate danger charities because he's a man? That seems to be their thinking.

@PlanDeRaccordement

I too am baffled by their reaction. In Movember men grow moustaches to raise awareness of men’s health issues like prostate cancer, suicide and murder. (Eg. For every woman murdered, 3 men are murdered). So as women, they don’t have to do anything to celebrate it. What do they mean they are against it? They surely don’t want to stop men in their office growing a moustache?

I get the metoo/kidnapping/murders but you can care about both women’s issues and men’s issues? It’s not an either or situation or an us vs them situation.

I agree.
Do they think men haven't got any problems? Such black and white thinking. There really is a case for more of an emphasis on critical thinking in schools.

I get their pov, though maybe they aren't expressing it particularly well.

I have made a very conscious and clear decision to prioritise women's issues. That's where my time and money goes. I don't have anything left over for causes that don't fit within that - so I don't tend to donate to cancer research or lymphoma awareness or the local dog and cat home.

I don't think that makes me a horrible person, I just want to concentrate my resources on issues that matter most to me.

But I wouldn't stop anyone else celebrating or drawing awareness to their charities, which is where perhaps I differ from DD and DN.

On the other other hand also, god their office sounds exhausting...

My explanation that the world was very similar when I was their age , if not worse (the 90s), did cause a bit of a heated discussion.

I don't think this is a very compelling or convincing argument and I'm not sure I agree with you. Some things are better than they were but I think some things are worse. Rape prosecutions are at an all time low. Porn has normalised violent sex for many young men (strangulation during sex, rough sex defence etc) The rise of the internet means women are more often exposed to sexually violent threats and insults simply for having an opinion. Incel culture is now a thing.

I don't think it's up to you to tell them either how to feel or which charities they should support. Discussion is fine but labelling their views as extreme when they are not advocating violence or for anyone to be disadvantaged is unreasonable.

Have women been invited to submit stories as part of charity campaigns at work? If not I can see why they would be annoyed.

I’m not a huge fan of movember tbh. Not the cause, which is obviously very important, but the lack of effort involved - giving Keith in the office a tenner for not shaving for a month so he can show off makes me a bit 🤔

On the other other hand also, god their office sounds exhausting...

Haha I thought this too!

Stupid is the word that springs to mind. So they think by refusing to acknowledge or support cancer fund raising / awareness they are “making a stand about male violence”. Oh dear….. ask your dd and dn how they would feel if their dads / grandads got diagnosed with cancer? Would they be grateful for fundraisers and would they appreciate support? Or would they say “nah… sod male cancers!”

Their workplace sounds tedious!

They’re not U to want to opt out of financial donations, spending time on or faking enthusiasm for causes they don’t deem a priority, for themselves.

They’re U to have a problem with others doing things.

@MissyB1

Stupid is the word that springs to mind. So they think by refusing to acknowledge or support cancer fund raising / awareness they are “making a stand about male violence”. Oh dear….. ask your dd and dn how they would feel if their dads / grandads got diagnosed with cancer? Would they be grateful for fundraisers and would they appreciate support? Or would they say “nah… sod male cancers!”

Thank you! My point exactly!