Struggling to understand Dniece and DD 's feelings against supporting Movember

[thecatmother]

Dniece is visiting this weekend and was telling us last night that herself and a number of female colleagues had been against celebrating Movember at their office due to the recent events (metoo, kidnapping, murders). My DD thinks the same, basically no need to support or celebrate any male related causes due to what is happening in the world.
I am so saddened by their extreme outlook. They both have very warm and loving relationships with their fathers and grandfathers , and they both admit that one day they want to get married.
My explanation that the world was very similar when I was their age , if not worse (the 90s), did cause a bit of a heated discussion.
I am not getting this hostility, especially from 2 rather privileged young women: they have good jobs, had good education, have supportive families, big groups of friends...things that a lot of people do not have. I did get a little cross with them, and suggested instead of being so unwavering in their opinions to go and volunteer for a day in a hospice and meet the people who would benefit from them supporting Movember.
Am I too old, too harsh? Probably both! Apologies for the rant.

Dislike your comment about them being ‘privileged’.

They might have experienced or been directly affected by, for example, stalking, sexual violence and / or sex discrimination. Even if their experience is ‘only’ limited to ‘everyday sexism’ they’re not U to be concerned about and want to prioritise women’s issues.

@MissyB1

Stupid is the word that springs to mind. So they think by refusing to acknowledge or support cancer fund raising / awareness they are “making a stand about male violence”. Oh dear….. ask your dd and dn how they would feel if their dads / grandads got diagnosed with cancer? Would they be grateful for fundraisers and would they appreciate support? Or would they say “nah… sod male cancers!”

But they’re not though - they don’t have a problem with fathers’ day being celebrated for example, so it’s not anti-men. It seems like it’s anti-movember, and since the OP hasn’t said they support a female equivalent (I guess breast cancer awareness month?) then I’d say it’s fair enough.

I don’t think I’ve ever actively ‘supported’ Movember, I have direct debits set up for small, local charities and that’s it. Can’t say I can get excited about people raising money by not shaving for a month.
Their logic is odd, though.

Their extreme POV may simple be a reaction to the general extreme points needed for 'causes'. There's no option to be indifferent. If you don't show loud and enthusiastic 'support' you're automatically deemed an antagonist and they need a justification for their stance. Especially in 'woke' offices where everyone has to participate in the flavour of the month.

To an extent silence is enablement (e.g. not speaking up when encountering racist behaviour for example) but pigeonholing people as racists when they don't want to be involved in Black History Month/BLM for example is not. I'm not white btw.

That's why they feel like they have to justify themselves. If it was ok to say 'no, this is not a cause I care about' they wouldn't need to.

I get their reasoning tbh, when various awareness campaigns have been going on men have been NAMALTing everywhere and it's been exhausting and women are getting fed up of not being heard.

I agree.

We get whataboutery with every single female issue, but when it’s a man thing we just have to shut up and get behind it.

Women have to undergo painful invasive smear tests regularly from their 20s, but men won’t do something as small as getting a prostrate check from their 50s and we need to “raise awareness” to encourage them to do it? None of those growing the silly moustaches in my office care even a little bit about men’s mental health. I won’t be supporting it either.

@Dozer

Dislike your comment about them being ‘privileged’.

They might have experienced or been directly affected by, for example, stalking, sexual violence and / or sex discrimination. Even if their experience is ‘only’ limited to ‘everyday sexism’ they’re not U to be concerned about and want to prioritise women’s issues.

I appreciate your point , however as their mother and aunt I do reserve the right to call their circumstances privileged. They are privileged to be white, to be well supported by their family , to have roof and food to the extent of never having to worry about that aspect of their lives. They can travel, they can identify as they wish and love whoever they wish. They are privileged comparing to many other women in this very country. That is why I am using that word. The reason I am cross and disappointed is that they are not supporting this charity only, they are not supporting any charities. They are simply using somebody else's experience justify their hostility.

Are they even allowed to have "men's charities"? Shouldn't it be prostate havers? Etc.

The reason I am cross and disappointed is that they are not supporting this charity only, they are not supporting any charities.

Which is entirely their choice and for you to bleat on about their privilege is ridiculous.

They are simply using somebody else's experience justify their hostility.

They would be in a very tiny minority to have not experienced any sexual harassment, sexism or worse in their lifetime. What experience should they have to deal with for you to understand their point?

Their hostility is totally justified.

I suppose it depends how much work is advertising the month and what it’s expecting of its employees in response. If the workplace is making a big deal of Movember, showcasing stories from men etc but hasn’t put in the same amount of effort I could see why some women may feel frustrated at it. I would also be interested in what kind of stories the men are sharing in the weekly bulletin, are they stories of men effected by make cancers etc or is it just an opportunity for a nam to show off the fact he hasn’t shaved and virtue signalling to the office by talking about how important the cause is to him. Were there equal opportunities for women to be featured in the newsletter during other notable events? If it seems like Movember is being used by the company as just another event to ensure men’s voices are heard above those of anybody else I would probably feel less inclined to support it too so it’s hard to know if your DD & DN are being unreasonable without more context regarding how the company markets other events and how receptive it is to events which focus more on women.

And I haven't mentioned the access to quality health care, emotional support and choices to make . I am not talking about the abstract people I don't know , hence my emotional response.
We all worked bloody hard to ensure this nice life and it is sad to realise that they don't see how their life is different to many.
Anyway, this is a subject for an entirely different thread 🤣

That being a male is a privilege, and no need to celebrate. I honestly couldn't get through to them, was so bloody frustrating. Like I was speaking a different language to them.

Movember isn't celebrating maleness though it it?
It's raising money for research into a male health condition.

@cowburp

Are they even allowed to have "men's charities"? Shouldn't it be prostate havers? Etc.

Love it 🤣

@MrsFin

That being a male is a privilege, and no need to celebrate. I honestly couldn't get through to them, was so bloody frustrating. Like I was speaking a different language to them.

Movember isn't celebrating maleness though it it?
It's raising money for research into a male health condition.

Yeah its not celebrating male suicide!

None of the ‘privileges’ you have listed negate my point. Others being ‘worse off’ than they are isn’t relevant to how they think and feel about their own lives and what causes they want to think about, care about or do things for (or not).

Anyway, mothers and aunts don’t know everything about our daughters’/nieces’ lives! Many ‘Privileged’ women have experienced sexual assault, for example.

The reason you now give for feeling ‘cross and disappointed - that they contribute financially/in time to NO ‘causes’ - is different to the reasons in your OP.

And you’ve said that their workplaces promote a range of charity things, eg pregnancy loss, so presumably they have been asked to organise and/or donate to at least some or at least feign interest! That’s not ‘nothing’.

Is the issue that movember is clearly a man thing and speaks about men's issues.

Yet equivalent women's cancers must be about people with breasts or cervixes and all inclusive.

@burnoutbabe

Is the issue that movember is clearly a man thing and speaks about men's issues.

Yet equivalent women's cancers must be about people with breasts or cervixes and all inclusive.

Which would be a fair point.

I’m still struggling to understand why they have a problem with raising awareness of/ raising money for male cancers? Would they rather have male cancers ignored? 🤔

Why would you have such a pointless argument? Can't you just be different and that's ok?

@MissyB1

I’m still struggling to understand why they have a problem with raising awareness of/ raising money for male cancers? Would they rather have male cancers ignored? 🤔

I don’t think it’s specifically male cancers - because they celebrate male-only days like fathers’ day. I think it’s more that it’s a male-only charity when they don’t support female-only charities, or maybe because Movember is such a low-effort way to raise money. Maybe the OP will confirm.

I can’t get too worked up about Movember. Prostrate cancer is extremely well researched as a natural consequence of male ageing. Treatments are generally very effective and there’s been many advances recently in robotic surgery.

Comparable female illnesses are many many years behind both in terms of research and years to diagnosis.

@MissyB1

I’m still struggling to understand why they have a problem with raising awareness of/ raising money for male cancers? Would they rather have male cancers ignored? 🤔

Tbf I wonder how many men care about women's cancers 🤷‍♀️

I think you’re rather confused, OP, about the difference between ‘celebrating’ and ‘supporting charities related to’, and that if you can’t recognise that you don’t know more about their lives and experiences as women than they do, and they’re perfectly entitled to support/not support any charity, then I suspect your ‘#BeKind’ attitude contributed to the ‘extremity’, as you term it, of their position.

Their attitude is hardly controversial. I too, prefer to concentrate my fundraising/campaigning efforts on women’s issues.

And @Couchbettato, how many campaigns about women’s cancers target men in terms of telling men to get their wives to have a smear or go to the Breast Check clinic. (There was an NHS prostate cancer campaign aimed squarely at women, as though male health was a female problem.)

And also, given that so many institutions have now decided that references to female biology are ‘exclusionary’, because, after all, being a woman is just a ‘feeling’, I imagine there will be a knock-on effect on female healthcare.