Struggling to understand Dniece and DD 's feelings against supporting Movember

[thecatmother]

Dniece is visiting this weekend and was telling us last night that herself and a number of female colleagues had been against celebrating Movember at their office due to the recent events (metoo, kidnapping, murders). My DD thinks the same, basically no need to support or celebrate any male related causes due to what is happening in the world.
I am so saddened by their extreme outlook. They both have very warm and loving relationships with their fathers and grandfathers , and they both admit that one day they want to get married.
My explanation that the world was very similar when I was their age , if not worse (the 90s), did cause a bit of a heated discussion.
I am not getting this hostility, especially from 2 rather privileged young women: they have good jobs, had good education, have supportive families, big groups of friends...things that a lot of people do not have. I did get a little cross with them, and suggested instead of being so unwavering in their opinions to go and volunteer for a day in a hospice and meet the people who would benefit from them supporting Movember.
Am I too old, too harsh? Probably both! Apologies for the rant.

@saraclara

I don't know what you're thinking of *@BudgeSquare*, but Race for Life involves women of all ages walking and running 5k, usually in pink tee shirts or fancy dress outfits. And yes, often supported by the men in their life, some of whom volunteer as marshalls etc.

None of this "why should I care, women should sort their own shit out going on there. I've never heard a single man express resentment about it.

But when men sort their own shit out by organising their own awareness fundraiser, it's a different thing altogether, apparently.

Again, I don’t think it’s an anti-men thing that gets people to roll their eyes at movember. I think it’s because it’s so low-effort and basically involves Alan and Steve in the office to do absolutely nothing for a tenner, and then revel in what good people they are.

It’s similar to the people who do bungee jumps for charity, raise £275 and use that to pay the £250 fee. It’s rubbish.

Good on them for thinking for themselves, especially if they haven't fallen for the gender woo. There are thousands of charities out there. If you supported every campaign, you'd go bankrupt. I have sons but have never donated to Movember. I'm not against donating to it but have never done so.
I usually do an Xmas donation but alas every year the charity I choose fails to retain my support for the following year by wasting my donation by writing to me multiple times during the year asking for more money...I'm looking at you Salvation Army, Crisis At Christmas.

@MissyB1

Stupid is the word that springs to mind. So they think by refusing to acknowledge or support cancer fund raising / awareness they are “making a stand about male violence”. Oh dear….. ask your dd and dn how they would feel if their dads / grandads got diagnosed with cancer? Would they be grateful for fundraisers and would they appreciate support? Or would they say “nah… sod male cancers!”

this exactly.....also the nightmare workplace thing

surely Movember is men doing what we always want them to do, sort their own shit out- I'm happy to support them, just as many men happily support women's charities and caused. I prioritise women's and girls' issues myself but that doesn't mean i won't give the odd £5 for men's mental health etc if asked.

The fact that it's easy to grow a moustache is neither here nor there and I don't think anyone is getting loads of praise for it are they?

Honestly, the critical thinking skills of so many people in society leave something to be desired. They'll be parroting some nonsense that they've heard (or think they've heard).

@BoredZelda

The reason I am cross and disappointed is that they are not supporting this charity only, they are not supporting any charities.

Which is entirely their choice and for you to bleat on about their privilege is ridiculous.

I would be very upset if my mother told me I was 'privileged' to have been born 'white' in 1960s Britain as that would mean the population was 99% privileged. OP YABU.

That has been taken out of context. The disappointment came from not the charities not being supported, but from the vehement hostility towards men. Please RTFT

@thecatmother

That has been taken out of context. The disappointment came from not the charities not being supported, but from the vehement hostility towards men. Please RTFT

But it can’t be - you said they also support fathers’ day in the office. RyourownFT.

That was in context of how regular those events are. They also celebrate Diwaly and Eid, and I heard no negative opinions about that.
And yes, they both differentiate between the family men and other men. Hence our discussion last night. I was saying that the disease can affect them through our/theirs family members and friends, and inviting them to step away from "male privilege" way of seeing the issue but more of "this disease affects people " way of seeing it.

[quote BudgeSquare]@saraclara

Also when my DD and her friends do Race for Life, their male friends go along and cheer them on.

That's the race where most women run in their bras, isn't it?

Very selfless of their male friends to make the sacrifice to turn up and watch[/quote]
No it’s not. You’re thinking of the moonwalk which is specifically for breast cancer charities. So if you’re going to be a dick about it, at least get your facts right.

I may be sensitive about this because my DF has prostate cancer, which was found by accident and the treatment didn’t work and has left him permanently damaged in a way which affects him every day. I just don’t get the either / or mentality here, you don’t support the cause? Fine. Why be an arsehole about something which actually benefits people?

Honestly, this place sometimes is unbelievable

We all worked bloody hard to ensure this nice life and it is sad to realise that they don't see how their life is different to many.

They are also a product of their parenting. If they don’t understand their privilege, they haven’t been raised to respect it.

My daughter has many privileges, she is being raised to understand and respect that, and to remember that part of her role is to support those who don’t.

But one thing, whilst everyone is arguing about which cancer charity people are supposed to support, we’re all forgetting that companies love to virtue signal their support for all these big cancer charities, meanwhile the smaller, less well known charities struggle for support. Over the past decade or so, each year the companies I’ve worked for pick them to support (except one year they did Alzheimer’s) they poll employees and see which is more popular and every year Macmillan or Cancer research wins every time. I’ve suggested dozens of other smaller charities but they are never chosen. 60,000 premature babies born every year but nobody wants to support charities who do research and support for that. Disabled people have a massive lack of sports opportunities which provide real benefits to their health and well-being, but nobody wants to support that. But Cancer Research gets nearly 650m annually. Macmillan, 250m. Bliss barely gets a million. So next time your company asks you who to support, remember those smaller charities could really do with your support.

@thecatmother

That was in context of how regular those events are. They also celebrate Diwaly and Eid, and I heard no negative opinions about that. And yes, they both differentiate between the family men and other men. Hence our discussion last night. I was saying that the disease can affect them through our/theirs family members and friends, and inviting them to step away from "male privilege" way of seeing the issue but more of "this disease affects people " way of seeing it.

So they don’t have an issue specifically with men’s days?

@Pumperthepumper, the only Men's day they supported was Father's Day. Which presumably they only see as relating to their own fathers.

Something that benefits all men seems to make them forget that their fathers also stand to benefit.

It's a perfectly valid choice for women to support women's charities. That said, it seems a bit obnoxious to loudly protest against Movember and men stepping up to highlight male health issues. I'd be happy to chuck a couple of quid in the pot and be mildly supportive.

If your DD and her friends are generally fed up with men because the ones around them don't recognise male privilege and male entitlement as being serious issues that feed into male violence and oppression towards women, then I don't blame them for being hostile but I personally wouldn't connect this hostility to Movember. There's no rule that women have to like men, especially given how much harm men as a societal group cause to women.

[quote saraclara]@Pumperthepumper, the only Men's day they supported was Father's Day. Which presumably they only see as relating to their own fathers.

Something that benefits all men seems to make them forget that their fathers also stand to benefit.[/quote]
Why would it? OP said they’re anti-movember because of metoo etc, surely they’d be against celebrating their colleagues fathers’ under that umbrella if they were anti-men?

It’s similar to the people who do bungee jumps for charity, raise £275 and use that to pay the £250 fee. It’s rubbish.

What fee needs to be paid to grow a moustache? Moronic comparison.

Does charity fund raising have to involve marathons and hardship?

My office does the 'Jeans for genes' day, takes fuck all effort to put a pair of Levi's on in the morning and go to work and pay a fiver into the pot.

Office cake sale for whatever charity, not exactly hard to bake some cup cakes to sell for 50p.

In the past when some men moaned about the greater funding directed towards breast cancer compared to prostrate cancer research some women told men to stop complaining and sort their shit out with regards to raising awareness and fund raising. When they do exactly that they still get complained about.

@thecatmother

That has been taken out of context. The disappointment came from not the charities not being supported, but from the vehement hostility towards men. Please RTFT

I don’t think young women are anywhere angry enough at the erosion of women’s rights.

[quote saraclara]@Pumperthepumper, the only Men's day they supported was Father's Day. Which presumably they only see as relating to their own fathers.

Something that benefits all men seems to make them forget that their fathers also stand to benefit.[/quote]
Thank you, it seems so , yes.

@DillonPanthersTexas

It’s similar to the people who do bungee jumps for charity, raise £275 and use that to pay the £250 fee. It’s rubbish.

What fee needs to be paid to grow a moustache? Moronic comparison.

Does charity fund raising have to involve marathons and hardship?

My office does the 'Jeans for genes' day, takes fuck all effort to put a pair of Levi's on in the morning and go to work and pay a fiver into the pot.

Office cake sale for whatever charity, not exactly hard to bake some cup cakes to sell for 50p.

In the past when some men moaned about the greater funding directed towards breast cancer compared to prostrate cancer research some women told men to stop complaining and sort their shit out with regards to raising awareness and fund raising. When they do exactly that they still get complained about.

‘Moronic’ isn’t an appropriate word to use these days.

The office cake sale is another great example of shit fundraising - a tenner to buy ingredients and sprinkles to make twelve cupcakes which are then sold for 50p each, genius.

Your other examples are of whole-group things, not one person raising money. Traditionally, one person doing a fundraiser involves some fear or at least some disruption to their lives, it’s supposed to be a challenge. And the bigger the challenge, the greater the money involved, generally.

If you care about men’s health charities, why fuck about until November to donate a quid? Why not run a marathon and do your own fundraising?

This year I have had the same knee-jerk response as the OP’s DD. But then in the last year I have left an abusive relationship with a man. Am I allowed to not feel like supporting men’s issues this year?

It might be an idea for the OP to have a less confrontational chat with her DD about how she feels about men and why. There is quite a large chance there has been illegal sexual aggression from men towards her and therefore she is not unfair in not feeling like supporting men’s issues.

As for me, I’m too senior to go with my instinctive response and will be supporting the charity members of my team are fundraising for (and then putting a temporary filter on movember emails)

Think they need to be told not to judge all men by the actions of a very small minority

In the past when some men moaned about the greater funding directed towards breast cancer compared to prostrate cancer research some women told men to stop complaining and sort their shit out with regards to raising awareness and fund raising. When they do exactly that they still get complained about.

Exactly.

If you care about men’s health charities, why fuck about until November to donate a quid? Why not run a marathon and do your own fundraising?

Do you say that to women when they have the Race for Life or any of the other big events for women's cancers? If so, fine. If not, why is Movember different?

It's far easier to raise money when the profile of an event or condition is high. Also easier to ask people to join in. The psychology of fund raising is a lot to do with social cohesion and belonging to something bigger.

@saraclara

In the past when some men moaned about the greater funding directed towards breast cancer compared to prostrate cancer research some women told men to stop complaining and sort their shit out with regards to raising awareness and fund raising. When they do exactly that they still get complained about.

Exactly.

If you care about men’s health charities, why fuck about until November to donate a quid? Why not run a marathon and do your own fundraising?

Do you say that to women when they have the Race for Life or any of the other big events for women's cancers? If so, fine. If not, why is Movember different?

It's far easier to raise money when the profile of an event or condition is high. Also easier to ask people to join in. The psychology of fund raising is a lot to do with social cohesion and belonging to something bigger.

No, I don’t - and I’ve explained several times now why movember is different; because it’s so low-effort.

Its really not a very small minority of men though. There's no way a tiny minority of men are harassing and abusing the vast majority of women.

The majority of men contribute to the toxic culture we have now where women are reduced to their looks, and rape convictions are sickeningly low.

I saw a study that said 60% of men were scared to work alone with a woman in case they are accused of something. I can quite honestly say that I have never been scared of being accused of something I didn't do, so why are men so worried since they are more likely to be raped than falsely accused of rape, yet you don't see them being scared of being raped very often.

It IS the majority of men, which is why me and many others judge the ones we don't know, because it could be very dangerous not to.

Until men start to sort out this culture I really wouldn't blame any woman for not caring about men's issues, even if they have men they love in their lives.

Movember can be quite blokey bantz at times, which can make it a difficult to engage with event. If you can't interest men in men's health without sniggering about how it's not an excuse for ladies to grow moustaches, well...