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An MP has just been stabbed.

522 replies

Cactus1982 · 15/10/2021 14:02

Breaking news on Sky. David Amess MP has been stabbed ‘multiple times’. Feels like Jo Cox all over again, surely MPs need security around them? Some of the comments they receive on social media are off the scale. All parties as well. I can’t imagine a US Senator wandering around without security?

OP posts:
MopaniTree · 16/10/2021 01:03

Poor man. So sad.

RedToothBrush · 16/10/2021 04:05

@lemmein

Just been reported on Sky News that it had been declared as a terrorist incident so maybe we can stop pointing fingers?
So we should just accept abuse and threats to MPs as ok and part of the job? Cos its not a 'proper threat'. On top of the threat of terrorism?

Remind me how you tell the difference between 'real threats' and 'abuse that is just someone mouthing off and not a warning about intent'?

How do you protect MPs if police have a culture of abuse to wade through to identify a real issue?

The whole toxic culture is a problem but because we have proof its terrorism now, we can merrily move on and say 'oh its ok'?

Yes. Ok. Seems like a sensible attitude Confused

The ease with which its seems its deemed ok to shrug off appalling behaviour because 'its not to blame' (this time) says a hell of a lot. And is worrying in its own right. I refer to points made previously about the concept of 'legitimate target'.

If anyone has a genuine desire to protect public servants then they really need to take a hard look at how making the life of politicians (or civil servants) dealing with this on a daily basis can be made easier and be supported better by the police and other authorities.

Its not just about the threat from terrorism. Its also about the general well being of people and their family in terms of having to live with that type of attention constantly. And how unhealthy it is for democracy for it to be a barrier to many to serve in public office.

Yes we damn well should be having a conversation about this. And yes now is an appropriate moment.

Amess made a point of saying how MPs must be accessible and in touch with their constituents. The worry here is this is going to change going forward and yes verbal as well as physical threats are highly relevant to this.

mellongoose · 16/10/2021 07:04

I totally agree with you @RedToothBrush

It has been classified as terrorism this time, but it just as easily might not have been.

Social media and conventional media have a massive role to play in how we treat each other and how we treat politicians. So do the politicians themselves.

Sir David was a role model for how a good MP should be. Disagree with each other and be accountable, but the mud slinging and tribal combativeness is awful.

If we don't encourage moderate and good people to enter and stay in politics, a vacuum will be created for extremists.

Like it or not ALL MPs are human, have families who love them and communities who respect them. Society should also show them respect and ensure they can do their jobs wholly and without fear.

Underamour · 16/10/2021 07:51

Nobody should be murdered because of the job they do. RIP

AnMPsWife · 16/10/2021 08:01

@MyDHusedtobeanMP - I have to agree, why would anyone want to put themselves (& their families) into the target zone for the abuse we get. I certainly would not be advising my kids to follow their dad.

We also have the alarms, the panic buttons, cctv was already planned before now.

DH has been up most of the night on the phone, trying to sort out local arrangements. Then just needing to talk. They all just need each other right now.

I’ve told him to try and stay careful, stay near police, keep an eye on his surroundings, what more can he do or I say?

Also, the staff are reeling too. Suddenly David’s staff are part of a murder/terrorism investigation. All the staff are realising their lives could be the same.

We are going to have to rethink how we live our lives, he can’t publicise where he’s going to be, probably shouldn’t be in the same place at regular times.

Glassofshloer · 16/10/2021 08:03

I don’t want to sound alarmist @AnMPsWife but what about a stab vest? I’m not sure if they can practically be worn day to day but might be worth considering in certain situations?

AnMPsWife · 16/10/2021 08:07

@Glassofshloer

I don’t want to sound alarmist *@AnMPsWife* but what about a stab vest? I’m not sure if they can practically be worn day to day but might be worth considering in certain situations?
Well he has had to wear one and a helmet in certain situations before, but not just for a surgery. I know the police are reviewing everything but it’s hard to know what to do.

I mean we live here, he goes to the supermarket, or round the corner for a paper. Should he wear one then? Should he carry his panic alarm to go to parkrun? What about when he’s on the train into London? Should he only ever drive from now on?

We’re trying not to freak out but this is yet another straw for me. Wish he’d never gone into politics - wish that often, but even more so right now. If a general was called soon, we’d have to have a serious conversation about continuing.

Glassofshloer · 16/10/2021 08:09

I would consider seeing if you can buy one that is very light & discreet for day-to-day MP activities.

Can you also add some safety apps to his phone so you can see where he is at all times, etc?

This all must be so unsettling and worrying for you Sad

yomlette · 16/10/2021 08:15

So awful. I grew up there and he was so involved in all the local happenings. He gave out prizes at our school every year and made a point of speaking to everyone individually, came to all the church events and so on. My parents were Labour supporters but in terms of our interactions with him as locals it didn't really seem to come into it at all - he just was so passionate about the area. My mum was in total shock yesterday. We went to school with some of his children and I can't imagine the pain. Rest in peace, and I hope in time his loved ones can find some solace in the tributes being paid to him.

AnMPsWife · 16/10/2021 08:22

I can’t even begin to imagine how the family are feeling, a million times worse than me I guess.

DH has had training for carjacking, what to do if his bodyguard goes down (grab the gun and shoot anything that moves seems to sum it up), how to get from one wrecked car to another safer one, etc.
But that is all for overseas visits to war zones.

Aside from the costs and logistics of having a police support everywhere (never going to happen), it would be so smothering to live like that. I know the ex PMs and NI ministers do have ongoing protection but for the average backbencher they want to live a normal life.

Many more discussions to come I’m sure.

flashpaper · 16/10/2021 08:40

@MsTSwift

Think of this when there is the next thread bitching about MPs being paid £80k 🙄.
NHS staff have been abused and subject to violence for years and years, not to mention the sheer amount who died due to the covid pandemic. Where is their £80k?
CounsellorTroi · 16/10/2021 08:45

This is so awful. So many don’t have a good word to say about MPs but the job can be dangerous. Four have been murdered in my lifetime including Ian Gow and Airey Neave, who were murdered by the IRA

SueSaid · 16/10/2021 08:58

'Aside from the costs and logistics of having a police support everywhere (never going to happen), it would be so smothering to live like that'

I don't think they need police support everywhere but at the very least some basic security on the door when doing public appearance would seem common sense. Just someone trained to spot suspicious behaviour, to know how to tackle people intent on doing harm.

Reviewer123456 · 16/10/2021 09:16

Some of the politicians are contributing to the incitement of hate towards MPs. The rant by Angela Ranger recently and the hateful words used are not helpful.

LatteToday · 16/10/2021 09:30

@JaniieJones but saying ‘just at public facing events’ - an MP constituency day might look like this:
Friday:
Meeting in library with local councillor
Surgery in library with constituents
Speaking at local school
Visit to local charity
Site visit to problem/issue with constituent/business
Then in office signing letters/meeting staff
Evening event speaking to business leaders/fundraising dinner for charity

You’d need a bodyguard all day travelling around with you.
Then repeat on Saturday.
Then what about when they’re out and about with their family? People know who they are. You can be out walking the dog and a constituent walks up to you and asks about their problem/policy issue. Or in the supermarket. Or walking downstairs the street. Or collecting the kids from
School. ‘Oh Mr … could I have a quick word’
Or in church- they come up and start having a go about a vote they didn’t like.

Happens every week.

DoraMaude · 16/10/2021 09:34

I think all MPs need to think more about their language and leading by example. Angela Rayner's comments were disgraceful. Hate filled bile. But she is not the only one, and it's not just the Labour Party. If someone in another workplace, such as an office, were to speak like this about colleagues they would be disciplined. It says a lot about the state of our country and politics that the deputy leader of a mainstream party can use words like 'scum' about her colleagues and her boss doesn't condemn her.
This is not acceptable, and in a democracy we should respect each other's views even if we do not share them.

RedToothBrush · 16/10/2021 09:43

@JaniieJones

'Aside from the costs and logistics of having a police support everywhere (never going to happen), it would be so smothering to live like that'

I don't think they need police support everywhere but at the very least some basic security on the door when doing public appearance would seem common sense. Just someone trained to spot suspicious behaviour, to know how to tackle people intent on doing harm.

It sounds like the attacker 'queued patiently for his turn' from what I've read this morning.

Maybe this isn't true, but I think we may find this example shows the problem of continuing to be accessible to all up pretty well.

How viable is it to search people entering a church or any other building to meet an MP? If challenged at the door would it protect people? - Keeping in mind other members of the public in close proximity and staff charged with doing the challenging.

You cannot just have surgeries in various places in your constituency to make it easier for people without transport or mobility to get to you then. You have to have a singular base, probably with metal detection installed.

At the moment the way parties run constituency offices they are mainly resourced and paid for by the party with rent then being reclaimed as an expense rather than there being a fixed constituency office owned by government which the new MP moves into. If you are going to think about installing this type of security which perhaps involves good infrastructure and consideration given to suitable location, you would need to completely overhaul how constituency offices are managed and who owns them. This alone is likely to cost £££.

What i think we will also ultimately see is the need to pick up worrying behaviour before this point and that involves intelligence much earlier in the system and identification of individuals deemed a potential problem.

There are also side effects and consequences with this.

It is more likely to mean formal prearranged meetings with the public only, vetting before the meeting by intelligence and the requirement of showing ID.

This then causes certain barriers for some of the most vulnerable in our society who are currently still served by MPs. People with visa issues or asking for asylum particularly. And people generally with a background which perhaps isnt so great and does involve a history of being known to police and authorities. And it will put off others who simply have a fear of authority and this type of formality (if you have come from somewhere with a very authoritarian regime this is a real concern).

I think once you open up the debate on this fully, it starts to show why we need much more focus on why we need public respect for MPs generally, more awareness of the daily pretty dull and overlooked nature of case work for pretty desparate people which is really crucial and why even low level abuse creates a massive problem and endangers MPs (and those around them) more.

A culture where personal attacks and abuse is normal isn't healthy. MPs need to learn that doing it themselves to win political points is counter productive and endangers their own safety. Its a cheap and dangerous tactic.

I actually feel for Angela Rayner at this point for that reason because she's now part of a very unhelpful and unhealthy cyclic backlash. All parties have to start to make better decisions about putting their foot in their mouths unnecessarily and need to be able to better qualify and explain reasoning when stepping into controversial subjects avoiding any kind of ad homiem attacks. I don't think this is as difficult as some might profess. Nor do i think it impinges on democratic freedom of speech on crucial issues. Being respectful even when you dislike someone or disagree with you doesn't stop you getting your message across if you are focused on issues not personalities (and actually this still allows you to raise questions about professionalism - eg when MPs decide their priority is to go on holiday rather than address a pressing crisis).

Someone has to start saying that the model for society and social media generally needs to shift away from emotional appeals and opinions to much drier nitty gritty of detail and problem identifying and solving.

I read this thread back and noted a study Id seen reported in the last couple of weeks which highlighted there is a problem with the public not knowing the basic difference between established fact and pure opinion and how this important (including when trying to challenge established fact) and how this is particularly true for younger people.

Volitity in society often stems from this and how emotional decision making takes over from rational (its the core of extremism of all kinds).

If you want to tone down that you have to calm the public down generally speaking. Police are trained in de-esculation skills. There is a lot to be said for applying this to politicians.

However thats not how recent election strategies have been run and won... And its not how the media gets money from selling papers or getting per click advertising revenue.

And I do think thats ultimately were the problem is, and fuck knows how you change where the model on media funding and election winning from where we are now. Too much money and power involved.

RedToothBrush · 16/10/2021 09:55

Then what about when they’re out and about with their family?

Talk of giving MPs bodyguards neglects to think of the family of an MP at home whilst they are at Westminster.

The family remain a 'soft target' with family addresses often fairly public knowledge with minimal digging required to find out this information.

As i say upthread, i know of an MP who ultimately decided to not stand again because of abuse directed to family and how the family home was targeted by things like dogshit through the letterbox.

If there is a threat to life to MPs then by extension it also is a 24/7 risk to those who live with them and work closely with them at a fixed constituency office.

And that isn't taking into account all the normal everyday stuff like going to shops for food or regular social activities.

I do think the public forget that most MPs are low profile pretty normal and dont have ministerial cars and security. They are very much 'on their own'.

Sometimes I think that the cabinet (and shadow cabinet) themselves forget this...

I don't know.

Its not something I'd do for love now money, but I do think our politicians have managed over many years to get themselves tangled in a mess which has exacerbated an already delicate balance between the public and themselves for various reasons.

Polarisation in society has increased massively in the last 10 to 20 years. Thats what extremism is. You have to start unpicking that...

...as i say, its a bit easier said than done.

Florianus · 16/10/2021 10:15

The police have already said that they believe the attack was an act of terrorism linked to Islamist extremism. Nothing about links to the foul-mouthed comment by Angela Rayner earlier this year.

MajorCarolDanvers · 16/10/2021 10:25

I do think the public forget that most MPs are low profile pretty normal and dont have ministerial cars and security. They are very much 'on their own'.

I agree with this but

Sometimes I think that the cabinet (and shadow cabinet) themselves forget this..

Only the PM and Northern Ireland ministers have full time security. Some other ministers will have security in certain circumstances. It's not all like The Bodyguard.

None of the shadow cabinet have security or cars.

Mulhollandmagoo · 16/10/2021 10:45

*And that isn't taking into account all the normal everyday stuff like going to shops for food or regular social activities.

I do think the public forget that most MPs are low profile pretty normal and dont have ministerial cars and security. They are very much 'on their own'.*

This is a really good point, our local MP is for want of a better phrase a very 'normal, everyday person' who shops in asda and eats in the local green King! Shes actually quite a nice lady and has been known to answer any questions while she's out and about doing her everyday activities! The thought of her being completely exposed to something like this is really scary, and she will likely stop for a while now, and will beess accessible to us (quite rightly) but people won't like this either! If you look on her official Facebook page too there are some absolutely awful comments on there about her!

But this kind of hatred is becoming commonplace now, look at what happened to Jeremy Vine a couple of weeks ago! It's absolutely terrifying!

Mulhollandmagoo · 16/10/2021 10:45

be less not beess

Mulhollandmagoo · 16/10/2021 10:48

@AnMPsWife I cannot imagine how you and many other people like you are feeling today Flowers Everything else aside this man was a husband, father and grandfather!

SueSaid · 16/10/2021 11:00

'The police have already said that they believe the attack was an act of terrorism linked to Islamist extremism. Nothing about links to the foul-mouthed comment by Angela Rayner earlier this year.'

Oh fgs. If terror related then it is the hate filled ideology behind the attack. Can't you not see the connection between hate speech and inciting violence? Surely it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out by high profile big gobs making inflammatory comments then it just may contribute towards making MPs targets??

Notonthestairs · 16/10/2021 11:06

Our MP is very accessible. I have a decent idea where they are on any given Friday or Saturday. They live here. They go out of their way to be in the thick of it - it's why they stood out amongst other candidates.

I think things will get worse. We have some issues ahead of us - supply chain concerns, prices rises and inflation and the NHS backlog in addition to all the usual pressures. And then throw in an election i(2023?) and this from RedToothBrush:-

"However thats not how recent election strategies have been run and won... And its not how the media gets money from selling papers or getting per click advertising revenue.

And I do think thats ultimately were the problem is, and fuck knows how you change where the model on media funding and election winning from where we are now. Too much money and power involved."

It makes me think any changes to public discourse/media will be temporary and fragile.

I'm very gloomy about how any of it can be tackled - and indeed whether there is a will to see it through. It will be our loss.

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