What do the tories have to do to lose an election ?

[Desmorelda]

There have been suggestions in the press that within the next year Johnson will call a general election what with the infighting going on in the LP and life for many returning to normal.
At the moment the Tories are still garnering a decent percentage of prospective votes in polls. On a recent thread about Angela Rayner's choice language most posters were incensed that the PM had been subjected to such insults and felt that this genuinely made the opposition unelectable, such was
her threat to the moral fabric of the UK. However bad things are, people seem to have short memories at election time. Default vote is for the tories, however fiscally inept they are, despite multiple incidents of cronyism and corruption, dishonesty, documented lying in parliament.
I appreciate other parties are equally as incompetent but in a more bumbling, less cynical way. The Tories on the other hand are tefal plated and are not subjected to the same rigorous moral standards as the lib dems or the LP, both by the press and voters. I find it mystifying as someone not born in this country that people are so complacent and forgiving. So I just wondered how bad do the Tories have to be to lose your vote. Or maybe explain what have they done so well in the last 11 years to deserve your vote ?

A colleague of mine said that Johnson could rape your mum and dad bent over the living room sofa, after Sunday lunch, in full view of both you and the neighbours and tory voters would still make excuses for his actions

This is the kind of nasty shite that puts me off labour.

@Desmorelda
I remember your username as it kept cropping up from a similar thread earlier this year from the opposite viewpoint: What do the Labour party need to do to stop their slow death?

You didn’t seem to take anybody’s explanations or answers on board in that thread and it doesn’t look like much has changed in this one. You keep asking “but why?” People are telling you why. People have told you why lots of times. You don’t take anything on board (much like your political party of choice).

@Desmorelda

Corbyn has gone now. So corruption, lying, cronyism is tolerated because another party is worse. But that party hasn't been in power for years and a new leader has been elected who actually seems decent. Unhinged lunatics....In what respect ? It's that kind of exaggeration I don't get. How can an opposition be shittier ? I really don't recall labour being quite as corrupt ?

'Only women have cervixes.' He thinks that should not have been said. He is trying to appeal to people who think that's true. Bad news for women.

He allowed Rosie Duffield to be bullied out of the Labour Party Conference by the people to whom he most wants to appeal Very bad news for women.
He can whistle for my vote.

Think previous poster talking about younger people is correct ... only way to get the Tories out is to get younger people politically engaged and active. That should be the mission until the next election.

GianaSister
Yes OP is very selective in her responses!

And for the record OP, European voters are not brave or willing to vote for something different as you state. European voters are predominately voting for coalition governments in virtually every county that isn’t ex- eastern block. So they are voting for knowing no matter what they are going to get centrist politics.

Your other posts made me thinks of another reason …. The constant carping on by labour that voters are happy to be subservient to the upper classes and like be run by the elite etc. which is yet more of evidence if the utter scorn Labour has for the electorate.
And as if the Labour Party hasn’t also got the same proportion of privately school educated, Oxbridge/LSE members.

Most voters don’t give a shiny shit about where MPs went to school. Only the labour members care and continue this ‘posh / elite’ which ironically shows their own insecurities. Most of the people in this country do not such large chips on their shoulder driven by inferiority complexes.

For me the crunch is going to come down to climate change policies, because this is urgent - when swathes of towns in the UK are being decommissioned due to rising sea levels, we will be up shit creek. Its not an exaggeration to say we face an existential crisis that we have 7-8 years to solve.

[quote Desmorelda]@user1497787065 what has Starmer done wrong given he hasn't produced a manifesto yet ? And why is Johnson better ?[/quote]
The fact he hasn't produced a manifesto yet.

So what I took away from the labour conference us this:
Starmer thinks boris is trivial
raynor is remarkably gobby
they don't much like women

I am sure they said other things....They need a better slogan

I don't think it's so much the Tories winning currently as the other parties losing.

Get a decent opposition leader and I think it would be a different story.

Labour try to please a very small "woke" minority in the UK and have totally forgotten about their backbone being a party for the working class, Boris saw this and was sweeping up their votes.
I also don't like the Tories but they have a huge following I can't see them voted out anytime soon.

Labour are absolutely part of the problem. In areas where lib Dems can't win in the last election they encouraged people to vote Labour. But Labour refuse to do the same in Lib Dem strongholds, splitting the opposition vote as a result.

Jeremy Corbyn lost two elections, but refused to resign after the first. It was evident then that he would never be able to win an election but the man's ego and his deluded supporters kept him in that position. The result was an even stronger Tory party.

And for the record OP, European voters are not brave or willing to vote for something different as you state. European voters are predominately voting for coalition governments in virtually every county that isn’t ex- eastern block. So they are voting for knowing no matter what they are going to get centrist politics.

I’m not sure it’s anything to do with being brave or not.

The voting system (PR or similar) in use in many countries lends itself to a collation outcome, unlike the “winner takes all” FPTP used in the UK, which can allow a party to get a large majority of seats having only won a minority of the total votes cast by the electorate.

@Effic

Why (I think) people vote Tory & they are still ahead in the polls ….

Euro scepticism/ Brexit - it’s not a new thing. Tories were the only party to show some critical thinking around Europe and appeared to ‘listen’ to voters concerns and issues. Labour just called them all racist thickos. But the concerns of these voters (which they were told were unequivocally wrong) now appear correct. Working class people said that cheap foreign labour was driving down wages and working conditions …… they were absolutely told how wrong/thick/racist they were but now the situation around firstly hospitality workers and now lorry drivers seems to be confirming what they already thought. Wages are going up in both industries due to a shortage of staff and employers can no longer treat them like shit knowing there is an endless supply cos there isn’t. Care workers will be next I think. That’s a lot of people’s lived reality at the moment.

Current shortages ….. a few clicks in any news website tells you that it’s the same around the world. And it’s hardly Armageddon that you can’t get a McDonald’s milkshake! Voters are mainly still grateful to be getting back to some sort of normal. Very few people think that the world essentially shutting for two years wouldn’t have major repercussions so no one is blaming the Tories for anything that has its origins in COVID so it’s providing good ‘cover’ and quite frankly Labour look stupid doing so

The Tory party ask for your vote not your heart and they do not lecture, belittle and insult the very people they need to vote for them. The Tory party is not a cult. They list their policies and ask people to vote for them. Labour list their policies and then tell everyone that doesn’t whole wholeheartedly agree and endorse every word that they are thick, misogynistic, racist, and actually tells them they don’t want their vote. They want to tell you how to think and speak and police it venomously. Even if you think the trans issue is niche, the general outpouring of utter woke nonsense from Labour just puts people off. As PP have said, most people are small ‘c’ conservative so this just pushes them away. And blaming the media just annoys people as it’s basically continuing the rhetoric that people are all so thick that they can’t see the ‘truth’ as laid out by Labour which is kind of ironic. And it’s hard to blame the media when you have actual MPs tweeting their wokeness direct to the world.

Because it’s not a cult, the Tory party changes leaders like socks. There is a bit of political intrigue and then it’s fine. Boris is the first ‘popular’ leader they’ve had in a while so probably a few people did vote for him but mostly people voted for their perception of good policies not the leader who could change any day so boris isn’t the liability he should be. And everyone knows that the minute he becomes one, the Tories will dispatch him effortlessly.

Most people vote for themselves and their families. The Tory party ask voters to vote for what they think is best for themselves and their families and position themselves accordingly. Labour ask voters to vote for what’s best for society and claim they can deliver this utopia. Voters don’t believe them but even if they do, mostly people care more about themselves and their families 🤷‍♀️

I could go on but I won’t mainly because generally the Labour voters that ask this question just launch into a load of whataboutery but that is my opinion.

I was a Labour member, even voted Corbyn as Labour leader - twice 🤦‍♀️

Got a lot of abuse from questioning the Anti-Semitism running through the party. I saw a video of Corbyn throwing the word “Zionists” around, to me he may as well have just been using the word “Jews”.

The women’s rights issue is a major issue as well. They are pushing left leaning women to the right, they abuse them and call them names because they think that their sex is a biological fact.

It really has a cult like group think running throughout.

I live in a former Labour seat, and I don’t really trust him but at least the new Tory MP is seen about. He does seem to be pushing the creation of new jobs and encouraging new businesses to invest in the area. No mention of identity politics or dragging down his political opponents.

@Effic what are your opinions on the well documented distortions of truth, cronyism and corruption by this government ? Without doubt labour is an absolute mess but the tories are in power and are failing.
There is mudslinging from all sides, mainly from SM keyboard warriors. I've never heard a labour mp talk scornfully about the electorate.
Let's discuss the success that this government is making of brexit maybe ? Or all the other important issues ?

To answer your question … God alone knows!
but it’s the same as the SNP up here totally rubbish and clueless , but people keep voting for them .. no idea why can only hope the tide turns soon.

I think, OP, the question you should ask yourself and all other Labour supporters is “What are we doing wrong, that even with a badly executed Brexit, inflation, fuel crisis, cronyism, corruption and chaos, the electorate STILL would not vote for us”

Yes the Tories are awful. But they handled vaccinations well. They also did furlough well, Rishi Sunak has his head screwed on.

However, I feel the Labour Party see middle class average people like me as the enemy. I feel Rayner wants to start a class war. I feel that being called stupid and scum by Labour supporters such as yourself does, strangely, NOT want me to vote Labour in the next elections.

But the biggest reason is that Labour’s left see Venezuela as their ideal, and having lived there I would not wish that on the U.K., ever

I fully understand about traditional Labour principles and socialism but I've much more time for the argument that says you cant change lives without power and without winning a GE you are just a protest group.

I know how much Blair is vilified about Iraq but the hard truth remains that Labour only succeeded in this country with a centre left manifesto. As Mandelson said earlier this year 'lose, lose, lose, lose, Blair, Blair, Blair, lose, lose, lose, lose'.

Hard left might have an argument if Corbynism had done better at the polls in 2019 but it was roundly rejected by the working class communities who had typically been staunchly red. Now with Brexit being delivered, Covid as an excuse to cover failings and the vaccine roll out Labour have even further to go. Owen Jones' piece yesterday following a broadly positive report of Starmer at the conference made me realise that the factional infighting at Labour means it's going to be years and years more of the Tories and it's utterly depressing.

England is naturally a small c conservative country, at least outside the big cities. That's never changed in centuries.

It's a traditional country- look at our monarchy, not only do we still have them but we revere them even though they haven't modernised like the rest of Europe.

England is resistant to change- Brexit being a prime example of people reacting against supposed reforms from the EU. Even at the cost it's been.

Labour only ever won when they moved centre right and with their taken for granted Scottish and Welsh votes.

Labour is now dead in Scotland.

If they support Independence they'll never win in Westminster again on only ruk votes. If they support the union they lose the independence supporting Scottish working classes in their old heartlands which is exactly what has happened.

There is no way out of that conundrum without a breakaway Scottish Labour party (which is inevitable but not coming soon).

Westminster Labour really doesn't 'get' how the political landscape has changed in Scotland (and Wales). Which is no surprise since Scottish independence is never mentioned in the UK news/press.

So the outcome is long term Tory rule in England, especially so with the boundary changes.

I can see London becoming a city state after the rest of the UK has broken up.

@StMarysKettle

Nobody thinks Johnson walks on water. That's the sort of stupid comment that really gets my goat.

I voted Tory because having Corbyn and Labour as it was in charge was unthinkable. I think the Tories did a pretty good job getting the vaccine secured and rolled out and I haven't seen anything at all from Labour to make me think they would have done any better.

Plus I don't like the typical vocal labour supporter with their attitude of "you don't agree with me so you must be wrong and hate poor people."

Like pp said the door is open and Labour can't even walk through it - why would anyone vote for them?

This sums it up totally

It's a great question. I would LOVE to deny the current shitshow my usual vote, I hardly approve of anything they've done in the last couple of years and they are far too comfortable to do as they please atm.

But the thought of Labour extremists in power, led by that gobby Raynor and a weak man who thinks we shouldn't say women have cervixes... it's unthinkable. There are just no alternatives at the moment.

[quote Desmorelda]@Effic what are your opinions on the well documented distortions of truth, cronyism and corruption by this government ? Without doubt labour is an absolute mess but the tories are in power and are failing.
There is mudslinging from all sides, mainly from SM keyboard warriors. I've never heard a labour mp talk scornfully about the electorate.
Let's discuss the success that this government is making of brexit maybe ? Or all the other important issues ?[/quote]
I may have missed it but have you commented on effics post

Apologies if you have

@MarleneDietrichsSmile I was under the impression that the labour party was full of middle class liberal types and had strayed from its working class roots who are more small c conservative in their outlook ? I agree that there is a strident noisy minority of far left supporters who attack the voters they need. Even Starmer is being called a red tory .
@NashvilleQueen absolutely agree. It is depressing. Brexit hasn't kicked in by any means yet, I things are going to get far worse and some elements of the media are stubbornly trying to ignore it.
@felulageller a good post too.

@RufustheBadgeringindeer. In part yes. Have they answered about corruption and lying ?
I didn't think there was a rule that the OP had to answer every post ?
The whole thread has pretty much answered my question. The conservatives are comfortably in power. Despite Starmer's attempts to clear out the far left and make the party more electable Labour are still not trusted, never will be I suspect. The tories change leaders willy nilly, some of their actions reek of cronyism, they play with the truth. At the moment it probably doesn't affect the average mumsnetter's life.
Am I allowed to say that or is it being patronising ?

I think you can say what you want OP, rage all you like/need, I get it

But ultimately, instead of chiding those who voted conservative, why not try and explain why and how Labour under Starmer and Rayner would be better?

I would like to be convinced. As a centrist female (an old school biological female) who has previously voted Lib Dem, I feel kind of lost, and have voted conservative whilst holding my nose, as the “least bad option”.

Being told I am therefore rich snd amoral, or scum, or hate poor people (other quotes are available) won’t make me change my vote.

Keir Starmer looked promising to start with but I am not quite sure what he stands for? They need better PR, a clear message.

Ironically the Lib Dem’s had a clear message (that Brexit would be undone and “screw democracy”, and that women’s rights don’t matter) that means I can’t vote for them again.

[quote Desmorelda]@RufustheBadgeringindeer. In part yes. Have they answered about corruption and lying ?
I didn't think there was a rule that the OP had to answer every post ?
The whole thread has pretty much answered my question. The conservatives are comfortably in power. Despite Starmer's attempts to clear out the far left and make the party more electable Labour are still not trusted, never will be I suspect. The tories change leaders willy nilly, some of their actions reek of cronyism, they play with the truth. At the moment it probably doesn't affect the average mumsnetter's life.
Am I allowed to say that or is it being patronising ?[/quote]
No there isnt a rule

But you seem to have not acknowledged effic and her post and the many people who have quoted her and are now asking her direct questions

You asked a question and have got some good answers…you might not agree with all of them but some people have really made an effort