Do you think Henry VIII loved any of his wives?

[TheCactus1]

Do you think Henry VIII was actually in love with any of his wives? I know marriages at this time were often not for love but more to secure wealth and Henry VIII seemed to view his wives as disposable, but do you think he actually ever loved any of them at any point? Some have said he genuinely loved Jane Seymour but I wonder if this was just because she gave him a son?

Wasn’t he the reason women started giving birth on their back, as he wanted to watch them give birth from his throne?

No. I don't believe he was capable of love. I think he lusted and limeranced, but never loved.

The one he MIGHT have got close to loving, at the beginning, was Catherine (Aragon), but that soon wore off if it was ever there in the first place.

He was utterly besotted with Katherine Howard, in fact had to be stopped from killing her himself when her infidelity came to light.

Bit of a mid life crisis kind of love though if you ask me, he was literally old enough to be her grandfather.

I know this sounds bad but I don’t know if ‘love’ was the same then as it is now. I mean I’m sure people felt something for each other but I don’t know if love was considered the same at all.

I remember reading about King Louis 14th, he had arranged his niece (brother’s daughter, had known her since birth, always lived together) to go off and be married to King Carlos of Spain, who was an inbred, cruel and horrible little man by all accounts. The girl was crying, begging not to go and he said ‘goodbye. For ever’ because to come back to France ever in her life would mean the marriage had failed. I think back then standards for love were generally different, so the affection Henry felt for the wife who had given him the longed for son might actually have passed for love at that point.

What I mean is, King Louis would probably have said he loved the niece but his actions didn’t really show any love for her. Same with many historical figures, I think love was just different back then.

Do any of them?
It was a totally different life. Love had very little to do with marriage.

He probably had genuine love for Katherine of Aragon, as he fought to marry her (as his brother's widow, it was controversial); he was besotted with Anne Boleyn for sure, bewitched maybe, but the letters between them are really moving.

Katherine Howard I agree was more an old and unwell man's attraction to a bright pretty young girl.

Also interesting - which one of them would you choose to have been? I'm saying Anne of Cleves for sure.

It's so interesting because so little is reliably recorded and it's incredibly difficult to try to fit our modern ideas about love and partnership to what was always going to be an absurd relationship even in its own time.

I think you can make compelling arguments for him loving all the first three tbh. And I'm reminded of how many of us look back on relationships and declare we never loved them, or we can't recall how or why we loved them, and I wonder if that's how it was with Catherine of Aragon in particular.

I think genuinely loving Jane is an easy story because she conveniently dies before it can really be tested.

I do think there's more to it than the rampant lust it's often reduced to. I think his religious beliefs were real, for example, so I'm sympathetic to the idea that he took the lack of a son to be a genuine sign of God's displeasure.

I think he did love Jane Seymour. Probably because she gave him a son. Of all of his wives I think she was certainly the favourite, and the ones after her couldn’t match up.

@Kanaloa

I know this sounds bad but I don’t know if ‘love’ was the same then as it is now. I mean I’m sure people felt something for each other but I don’t know if love was considered the same at all.

I remember reading about King Louis 14th, he had arranged his niece (brother’s daughter, had known her since birth, always lived together) to go off and be married to King Carlos of Spain, who was an inbred, cruel and horrible little man by all accounts. The girl was crying, begging not to go and he said ‘goodbye. For ever’ because to come back to France ever in her life would mean the marriage had failed. I think back then standards for love were generally different, so the affection Henry felt for the wife who had given him the longed for son might actually have passed for love at that point.

This is something I’ve often wondered! If relationships were simply not recognisable at this time as we would see them today. I know I’ve read before about how children were often viewed as little adults which has made me wonder if the parent/child bond in this period was quite different to what we recognise today

I'm listening to the wolf Hall series on audio book now. I'm sure it can't be entirely historically accurate. But from this and my knowledge he seemed very fixated in having a son. So I think that was his main driver rather than love. He's with Jane Seymour now in my book, before she has a child. He does seem more find of her
But also I wonder if it's because she was a bit younger and is described as very slight and timid. So I think part of this is a fondness for being able to dominate.

I think he loved them all, except Anne of cleves and Katherine parr.
He went against his fathers wishes to marry Catherine of Aragon.
He changed his entire countries religion for Anne Boleyn.
Jane Seymour gave him his longed for son and heir.
And Katherine Howard was chosen above every other girl in the country despite her unconventional background.
Anne of cleves however was chosen for him and he divorced her rapidly, I do believe he had great respect for her though.
And Katherine Parr was to be his nurse in old age.

I know I’ve read before about how children were often viewed as little adults which has made me wonder if the parent/child bond in this period was quite different to what we recognise today

Definitely this. For royalty and other aristocratic type people it was common for the parents not to take much involvement with their children after birth, they would be handed straight to a nurse/nanny who would care for them. I think familial bonds were less strong/prioritised compared to now.

@clary

He probably had genuine love for Katherine of Aragon, as he fought to marry her (as his brother's widow, it was controversial); he was besotted with Anne Boleyn for sure, bewitched maybe, but the letters between them are really moving.

Katherine Howard I agree was more an old and unwell man's attraction to a bright pretty young girl.

Also interesting - which one of them would you choose to have been? I'm saying Anne of Cleves for sure.

Would absolutely be Anne of Cleeves too, she ended up with a pretty safe and happy life didn't she!

I don't think he loved any of them. I think for most of them he wanted them and thought he loved them because he couldn't have them.

And Jane Seymour was a fantasy as she died, so could become whatever he wanted in his own head.

He was married to Katherine of Aragon for nearly 25 years and the first 15 by all accounts were extremely happy. he fought to marry her and i believe he did love her...unfortunately love fades.

With Anne Bolyen and Katherine Howard think it was more obsession and possession than love. Jane Seymour was more an overcorrection than anything

As for @Shirleyphallus comment about women giving birth on their back cos he wanted to watch complete rubbish. The tudor queens had very strict rules about giving birth and rule no 1 was no men allowed! Women were mainly giving birth squatting until the early 20th century when it became more medicalised and the back thing was just cos it gave the doctor better access

I think he thought he loved all of them except Anne of Cleves until he didn't, and once he'd changed his mind, that was it.

He seems to have been quite like that with his advisors too - he clearly loved both Wolsey and Thomas Cromwell until he decided not to, and then there was nothing at all they could do to persuade him to take them back.

Henry is thought to have had a significant brain injury which may have left him with an altered personality.

I think every generation likes to think that they invented love. It's so arrogant.

Of course people in the old days fell in love, and loved their children. We wouldn't have endless graves, poems, diaries saying it otherwise.

@SirVixofVixHall that’s really interesting, I didn’t realise this, was it from some sort of jousting accident as I knew he had a leg injury due to this?

@Shirleyphallus You’re thinking of Louis XIV, and it’s not exactly him who made it catch on but there’s some truth to it.

As for Henry, honestly who knows. He was a king and used to getting what he wanted when he wanted it. I doubt he had much empathy for anyone, and his injury made him a grumpy git anyway.
I’ve always found his wives more interesting than him.

I don’t think this generation invented love I was saying I think love was very different at that time in history, as seen by how actions that would not be seen as acceptable now, were everyday normal actions then.

@SirVixofVixHall

Henry is thought to have had a significant brain injury which may have left him with an altered personality.

Yes, his behaviour seemed to change after this and I wonder if he had some brain damage.

I think genuinely loving Jane is an easy story because she conveniently dies before it can really be tested.

Precisely. Jane also played the good little wife because she had Ann's untimely demise to remind her (and according to Starkey, Henry himself) of what happened to women who got above their station.

Henry is an interesting character because he was motivated by the usual sense of duty and worries about his family legacy but also, less typical in Kings, his own pursuit of happiness. He fought to marry Katherine and they were happy for many years. Had their son lived, I think it's very unlikely he would have fought to divorce her and would been happy with having his mistresses as other kings were. The time in which he lived was crucial - the Tudors' place was not firmly rooted, the War of the Roses had ended not that long ago. His desperation for a son and to secure his family line certainly made him more susceptible to having his head turned to the extent he was willing to break with Rome and bankrupt the country to marry Ann.

Ultimately, he got his fingers burnt there. None of his other wives were ever crowned after Ann.

Alison Weir's book 'The Six Wives of Henry VIII' is very interesting and gives historical context to the women and their marriages.

I remember she presents evidence that Henry did "fall in love" with all of them in some way - even Anne of Cleves, as he was sent a flattering portrait of her that played a part in him agreeing to the marriage. However he was disappointed when he met her in person.

Falling in love is different from staying in love and working at a relationship which I suppose you don't have to do as a medieval tyrant!

He definitely seemed to prize Jane as the wife who "gave him" a son, and he was buried next to her eventually.

Alison Weir also has a theory that Henry suffered a type of brain damage after a bad jousting accident and this affected his personality, making him much more unreasonable with unpredictable moods. Also the accident prevented him from taking as much physical exercise which didn't help.

I think he loved Catherine of Aragon for the majority of their marriage. The evidence we have doesn't really suggest otherwise.