Do you think Henry VIII loved any of his wives?

[TheCactus1]

Do you think Henry VIII was actually in love with any of his wives? I know marriages at this time were often not for love but more to secure wealth and Henry VIII seemed to view his wives as disposable, but do you think he actually ever loved any of them at any point? Some have said he genuinely loved Jane Seymour but I wonder if this was just because she gave him a son?

@Deadringer

Imagine what Britain, and the rest of the world, would be like if only girls had been as respected and important as boys, with all the same rights of inheritance.

Oh yes.

@Shirleyphallus

Wasn’t he the reason women started giving birth on their back, as he wanted to watch them give birth from his throne?

No that was a French king

I did my dissertation on Anne Boleyn and based on their relationship and letters I would say he was utterly besotted with her, infatuation and I personally think completely head over heels in love. The fact he broke from the Catholic Church to marry her when she brought relatively little to the table in terms of politics (she was not a princess or hugely wealthy heiress). This is one reason why i think he beheaded her because of the huge betrayal he believed she had done him.

However, his need for a son I think superseded everything. Had Anne given him even one son I think it could have worked out differently. But as Jane gave him a son she is on a pedestal in his eyes, hence why he is buried next to her.

Had he not been king with such a desperate need for an heir I think he and Anne would have lasted, however I'm not sure she would have gone for him had he not been king but we will never know.

For his other wives my thoughts are the following:
Catherine - I think there was certainly love there, it worked well politically and she was very much loved by the people. Had she had sons I think he would have just had concubines for his whole life like most Kings haha!
Anne C - purely political, think a level of respect did develop and I think they even communicated post divorce so most likely a friendship here.
Catherine H - as pp have said, old man wanting to feel young again with a pretty girl
Catherine P - i don't know a great deal about this one tbh, but he was getting on a fair bit so think it was a marriage of convenience.

I think after Jane he started to lose the plot a bit, mental illness and physically struggling.

But, @Fleetw00d, Catherine of Aragon did have sons?

I don't think Henry thought he had broken with the Catholic Church. He thought he'd broken with the pope, but there's no evidence he saw this as a decisive break from the Church.

@BalloonSlayer

I think the story still exerts a pull as it is timeless in its way. The happily married man, who suddenly has his head turned, and lo and behold he declares that he never loved his wife at all, she tricked him into marrying him! The wife does the pick me dance to no avail, and having given him the best years of her life is now on the scrapheap, as is her child, who was once also adored by him. He keeps them short of money and tries to make everything as difficult as possible so he will get his way over the breakup. The Relationships board is full of this story.

He swans off with the OW but is astounded when life is not all roses and brings him exactly the same problems he had in his first marriage. What could possibly be the common denominator? Not him of course, he is just perfect . . .

So he does it again, and again.

There is even an Internet dating episode: "Christ, she looked nothing like her picture! NOTHING!"

Moral of the story? People never change.

Love this! Also love the idea of him sending a painting of his cod piece to his amour of the day (not really but if he did...) Interesting take on it and it really resonates.

@Shirleyphallus

Wasn’t he the reason women started giving birth on their back, as he wanted to watch them give birth from his throne?

That's King Louis XIV

Love is one of those things - like a sense of humour or music taste - everyone thinks the way they do love is the only/best way when really it's heavily influenced by the time and culture you live in.

I think he probably did love them, in the way he knew to love. A way that's probably alien to anyone who isn't a male monarch in the 1500s.

@SarahAndQuack

But, *@Fleetw00d*, Catherine of Aragon did have sons?

I don't think Henry thought he had broken with the Catholic Church. He thought he'd broken with the pope, but there's no evidence he saw this as a decisive break from the Church.

She did, but none that survived beyond babyhood - sorry I should have specified that!

Breaking with the Pope as head of the Catholic Church was quite a decisive move though. He also created the Church of England which if he hadn't have thought he had broken from the Catholic Church he potentially wouldn't have done as he needed his own church to have a divorce.

It has been about 10 years since I studied this though so my memory is a little hazy on the subject :)

No, he didn't create the Church of England really - that is later.

I don't think breaking with the Pope would have seemed very decisive at the time. There had been multiple popes in fairly recent history, and different countries had endorsed different popes - the idea that the pope was identical with the Church and couldn't be challenged was pretty dented at this point.

Henry really thought he'd created a Catholic Church in England, and never seems to have much deviated from Catholic doctrine.

I remember reading years ago that he cried "Anne!" as he was dying.

@Clawdy

I remember reading years ago that he cried "Anne!" as he was dying.

Sadly I suspect that it is apocryphal. Even if he had I doubt it would have been in the interest of the witnesses to report it - everyone already had an eye to jostling for power during the minority of Edward VI and which meant keeping in with the Seymours. Who probably wouldn't want to hear stories about Anne's name being called out.

Brilliant thread.

My history teacher from 40 years back thought that Henry knew Anne wasn’t guilty & that’s why he paid for an expert swordsman. But his need for a son outweighed all else. I’ve seen it said elsewhere as well.

He couldn’t behead Catherine as she was a Princess of Spain. I think he did love Catherine & if her male children had survived England would still have been catholic. But he must have loved Anne a great deal to do what he did.

I think Anne of Cleves would have been the one I’d like to be. Independent of my brother & my husband. Known as the King’s Sister. Yes I’d take that!

A note on arranged marriages - I had one as did my inlaws, dhs siblings, my parents etc.

It’s certainly very possible for love to grow after marriage but it’s not necessarily a given. In the old days you stayed married irrespective, as the shame of divorce was worse than being in an unhappy marriage. Thankfully this view is now dying out & there aren’t as many matchmakers around.

My dcs will certainly not be having an arranged marriage. I’ve been very happy with dh & luckily for us, fell in love while we were engaged.

I came across this 3-part docudrama last week. Henry doesn't really feature in it, but it's an interesting account of the rise and fall of the Boleyn family.
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p09jgjp9/the-boleyns-a-scandalous-family

I don't think Henry created the Church of England as we know it today.
He created the Church in England, in which he was supreme head. Apart from that, I'm fairly sure it was Catholic doctrine and anything else was still heresy.
We're still not allowed to have a Catholic monarch (fair enough, as they are head of the CofE, although in theory a Jewish or muslim Monarch isn't barred as such, just Catholic).

@AncientandFabulous: off topic, but I grew up in a fairly diverse area with lots of Jewish and muslim friends, a fair number of them had arranged marriages and are very happy. Obviously different from forced marriage (a lot of people get them confused!).

Probably all of them in his own way. He probably loved Catherine of Aragon the longest, he was married to her for longer than all the others put together. He was most passionate about Anne Boleyn - he certainly went to a lot of trouble to get her. Jane Seymour made him the happiest by giving him a living son. Even Anne of Cleves he was fond of as a ‘sister’ as he called her. Catherine Howard was doted on until he found out about her other lovers. He probably had a more mild fondness for Catherine Parr, though she made him very comfortable in his last years.

This point might already have been made but it’s worth remembering that he was married to Catherine of Aragon for 24 years- more than twice as long as the rest of them put together.