Do you think Henry VIII loved any of his wives?

[TheCactus1]

Do you think Henry VIII was actually in love with any of his wives? I know marriages at this time were often not for love but more to secure wealth and Henry VIII seemed to view his wives as disposable, but do you think he actually ever loved any of them at any point? Some have said he genuinely loved Jane Seymour but I wonder if this was just because she gave him a son?

@grafittiartist

I may be wrong but Jane Seymour and Henry are laid to rest together. He must have loved her ( she gave him a son) .

I think it's because she gave him a son that he wanted to be laid next to her. Also, by that time she was, by his own wrangling, his only dead legitimate wife.

It didn't matter if he loved them or not, they were the ones who were relying on his affection not the other way around.

For example Anne Boleyn was insecure with Mary and Catherine of Arogorn being in the background and potentially Mary's followers rising up to defend her right to the throne when and if Henry died.

This was demonstrated when Henry fell off his horse and was unconscious.

What Anne didn't realise was that it was Catherine keeping her safe because Catherine was her scapegoat for everything that went wrong. When Catherine died, Anne had no-one to blame and Henry knew that a vast majority of people didn't acknowledge Anne as Queen and still only accepted Catherine.

For Henry, his affection for Anne had already waned by then based on historical sources, Anne was meddling in politics, being rude to Henry's advisors and had still not produced a son.

Henry was thinking with his business head and needed to do damage control, that shows that the need to continue the tutor dynasty was more important than love.

**Aragon

@Shirleyphallus

Wasn’t he the reason women started giving birth on their back, as he wanted to watch them give birth from his throne?

Louis 14th, I believe

@grafittiartist

I may be wrong but Jane Seymour and Henry are laid to rest together. He must have loved her ( she gave him a son) .

It's a popular theory but one I'm quite sceptical of. Choice of burial location was often done with a view to the message it gave and creating an image of family dynasty was a popular motivator behind burial choices. Jane and Henry were the parents of the next king so it looked better dynastically if they we're buried together.

@banisher

I did my thesis (god knows how many years ago now) on early modern representations of children.

I remember one clergyman in particular who wrote about his family and their utter grief every time they lost a small infant; his children's illnesses and troubles fill page after page.

I don't know why we do it, look back and assume that people just didn't care somehow: they did and were bereaved beyond belief. I assume it's partly to make the past seem less painful ("they just dealt with it all better! They weren't that attached!")

It's also a feminist issue: a bunch of old single male academics tended to write history, and they sort of distanced themselves more from all of that. One moronic chap in particular mentioned above has been disproved time and time again but his work keeps bloody popping up in this sort of accepted way.

I really want to know the title now so I can read it but that would be a bit outing for you

He was a wife abuser was of international renown. Even tbe Czar of Russia, Ivan the terrible wrote to him to object!

@daytriptovulcan

He was a wife abuser was of international renown. Even tbe Czar of Russia, Ivan the terrible wrote to him to object!

About what? He wasn't Tsar until after Henry's death and I think he was still a teenager then... he did write to Eliz iirc

I think it’s quite clear that Henry loved his first wife Katherine of Aragon and actually loved Anne Boleyn. The surviving letters and accounts make this clear. Even at the end he paid for an expert french executioner so her death would be quick and painless (executions would often be bodged)

Nothing says love quite like your husband arranging for your murder to be quick and painless

I agree with those who say that he didn't love any of them. His surviving letters mean nothing as Henry was a master at courtly love and knew how to play the game. Actions speak louder than words and in his case his actions scream 'narcissist!'

A love story doesn't end with the one of the participants murdering the other. And just because some of them managed to die of natural causes doesn't mean he loved them either.

This thread is getting me hyped for seeing SIX soon... don't entirely understand the concept of the musical but hopefully it's as interesting as this discussion.

Oh it's brilliant...😊.

Who DID love their spouse in that era, what did someone do (distinctive) who actually loved and treasured their spouse? How would we recognise the difference between marriage of great convenience + lust vs. genuine deep affection.

Sincere question.

I think the story still exerts a pull as it is timeless in its way. The happily married man, who suddenly has his head turned, and lo and behold he declares that he never loved his wife at all, she tricked him into marrying him! The wife does the pick me dance to no avail, and having given him the best years of her life is now on the scrapheap, as is her child, who was once also adored by him. He keeps them short of money and tries to make everything as difficult as possible so he will get his way over the breakup. The Relationships board is full of this story.

He swans off with the OW but is astounded when life is not all roses and brings him exactly the same problems he had in his first marriage. What could possibly be the common denominator? Not him of course, he is just perfect . . .

So he does it again, and again.

There is even an Internet dating episode: "Christ, she looked nothing like her picture! NOTHING!"

Moral of the story? People never change.

I keep wondering that too @lljkk. And how do we know now? It's really off topic but I was reading Nadiya Hussein's autobiography where she talks about how her marriage started - which sounds really pretty awful in a lot of ways - but also how she and her husband did fall in love. And it seems really dodgy to me to assume that kind of love is somehow lesser or less genuine than marrying someone in the fog of limerence when you've been dating 9 months and the sex is amazing.

I think humans are very good at overlooking the things that spoil the big romantic story, in any era. I suspect historians in the future will find it really hard to believe anyone could genuinely love their husband in an era where the husband was allowed to rape the wife - but in England and Wales marital rape was totally legal up to 1991, and when it was criminalised there were lots of apparently 'loving' husbands who were shocked at what they saw as a violation of their rights.

I belive he genuinely loved Katherine of Aragon and she loved him. However the fear of no heir in a new dynasty can do terrible things to a person.
Henry would have had all of Europe breathing down his neck wondering when a surviving male heir was going to be born. He had a son called Henry shortly after his marriage to Katherine of aragon but he died shortly after birth and was mourned deeply by his parents. That teamed with many many miscarriages and still births including many boys and Katherine reaching menopause I can see how his head won have been easily turned towards a young woman like Anne.
Plus Anne's sister had been Henry's mistress and had a son with her and a son with Bessie blout both of who were strong and healthy so in Henry's mind the issue must not be him but his wife.
I do believe that he fell out of love with her largely due to the pressures of medieval Europe.
His suspected brain injury didn't happen till he was married to Anne boleyn.

Although re my internet dating analogy, hopefully Henry did not get Holbein to paint a picture of his codpiece to send to Anne.

@lljkk

Who DID love their spouse in that era, what did someone do (distinctive) who actually loved and treasured their spouse? How would we recognise the difference between marriage of great convenience + lust vs. genuine deep affection.

Sincere question.

It can be quite hard to tell because of lack of evidence but I think John Paston III and his wife Margaret loved each other - there's quite a collection of letters for the Paston family (Norfolk gentry family) and she does write about missing him and not having lain in his arms for a long time.

A bit earlier but one of the daughters of the duke of Norfolk - Margaret Mowbray- married one her brothers retinue of men at arms (he may have been a knight but probably not). There's no proof but it's a massive social mismatch and they met practically on a battlefield (a siege at least), so a love match is distinctly possible

@SarahAndQuack yes I'm sure it was a wrench, especially as she was only a child herself. I think the language of her letters is odd from a modern perspective, though - she addresses him as 'most beloved' and writes of her deep affection for him when she didn't know him, really.

I think these days we'd only write in those sorts of effusive terms to someone we actually had a close and sustained relationship with. I feel like familial affection in the mediaeval period was more performative, somehow: as Henry's mother, Margaret declared her devotion to him, but she can only have loved the idea of him, really - she didn't know the real him at all.

@BalloonSlayer

Although re my internet dating analogy, hopefully Henry did not get Holbein to paint a picture of his codpiece to send to Anne.

I bet he did though.

[quote itssquidstella]@SarahAndQuack yes I'm sure it was a wrench, especially as she was only a child herself. I think the language of her letters is odd from a modern perspective, though - she addresses him as 'most beloved' and writes of her deep affection for him when she didn't know him, really.

I think these days we'd only write in those sorts of effusive terms to someone we actually had a close and sustained relationship with. I feel like familial affection in the mediaeval period was more performative, somehow: as Henry's mother, Margaret declared her devotion to him, but she can only have loved the idea of him, really - she didn't know the real him at all.[/quote]
I dunno, though - I was looking at the language used by biological mothers of babies who were adopted in Ireland through the Magdalene laundries, and they really do use this kind of language. It's almost like a way of compensating?

It is terribly sad.

I do know what you mean about performative emotion, but I think they might not have had the same sense that something performative wouldn't also be real, and heartfelt.

@SarahAndQuack that's an interesting parallel that I hadn't considered. You may be right; when I read her letters the expressions of affection felt off based on what I know of their relationship by perhaps I'm projecting my modern bias too much!

I'd have hated to have her as a MIL - once he was grown up and she was able to share his household she didn't let go 😂

@BalloonSlayer

Although re my internet dating analogy, hopefully Henry did not get Holbein to paint a picture of his codpiece to send to Anne.

It doth bend! 😂😂😂

m.youtube.com/watch?v=wcIpwrdfI1c

Margaret Beaufort would have been a nightmare MIL. Fascinating woman though. So much tragedy in her life and her marriage/birth of Henry VII were horrific. Then in later life she is this formidable woman with legal rights that most women didn't have, a translator, artistic patron, founder of educational establishments, and deeply pious. In am not sure any popular film/literature representations i have come across really do justice to the complexity of her life and the impact of her earlier years. (Though i have to admit I don't like Philippa Gregory so haven't read the Red Queen)

Imagine what Britain, and the rest of the world, would be like if only girls had been as respected and important as boys, with all the same rights of inheritance.

[quote itssquidstella]@SarahAndQuack that's an interesting parallel that I hadn't considered. You may be right; when I read her letters the expressions of affection felt off based on what I know of their relationship by perhaps I'm projecting my modern bias too much!

I'd have hated to have her as a MIL - once he was grown up and she was able to share his household she didn't let go 😂[/quote]
Oh, they feel off to me too! But she can't have had much sense of what would be normal. Having a baby aged 13 would have shocked people; maybe she was trying to sound like the mature, loving mother she never managed to be?

But YY, OMG, nightmare MIL!