Do you think Henry VIII loved any of his wives?

[TheCactus1]

Do you think Henry VIII was actually in love with any of his wives? I know marriages at this time were often not for love but more to secure wealth and Henry VIII seemed to view his wives as disposable, but do you think he actually ever loved any of them at any point? Some have said he genuinely loved Jane Seymour but I wonder if this was just because she gave him a son?

@randomlyLostInWales I feel like The White Queen / White Princess tv show has ruined me for Margaret Beaufort she was so unlikable in it, but I keep trying to see beyond it.

@yourestandingonmyneck

In case you find it interesting, this is the text of Katherine of Aragon's last letter to Henry when she knew that her death was imminent. She was amazingly strong and brave. I know Henry was seen to dance and party upon hearing of her death, but I feel he must have felt guilt and regret even if he didn't admit it to himself.

My most dear lord, king and husband,
The hour of my death now drawing on, the tender love I owe you forceth me, my case being such, to commend myself to you, and to put you in remembrance with a few words of the health and safeguard of your soul which you ought to prefer before all worldly matters, and before the care and pampering of your body, for the which you have cast me into many calamities and yourself into many troubles. For my part, I pardon you everything, and I wish to devoutly pray God that He will pardon you also. For the rest, I commend unto you our daughter Mary, beseeching you to be a good father unto her, as I have heretofore desired. I entreat you also, on behalf of my maids, to give them marriage portions, which is not much, they being but three. For all my other servants I solicit the wages due them, and a year more, lest they be unprovided for. Lastly, I make this vow, that mine eyes desire you above all things.
Katharine the Quene

I seem remember that Henry legged it as soon as there was any threat of plague near his vicinity...

Separate household for child is a mixture of prestige, establish a royal presence in particular area (ie Wales) and possibly some element of making sure They were away from disease.

I read an unpublished thesis (or maybe an article) on parental grief a while back. If remember correctly there was definitely grief expressed over the death of children both by parents and by their communities. It was not necessarily the same as expressions on grief today but it was there and certain behaviour was expected (to simplify) with differences between expectations for mothers and fathers. But we don't really have a mass of diaries and letters to see how lots of people thought of grief so we have to work with other sources - eyewitness accounts for the coroner's, descriptions of grief in saints lives etc which is harder. I must look the research out again.

@pommepommefrites

I thought they knew they had to quarantine ships to stop the plague so they must have a crude understanding about how illness was spread from one person to another? Although I might be wrong.

It's later but I watched a documentary about plague that was looking at tranmission being done by human flea and lice www.the-scientist.com/the-nutshell/human-fleas-and-lice-spread-black-death-30409 which means things they did at the time like trying to fumigate properties and banning second hand clothes market and trying to get people to burn bedding used by victims - makes much more sense (makes less sense if rats were disease vector ) - people could make connections and see what was spreading things even if they didn't fully get the underlying mechanisms.

The Sweating sickness was a huge issue in Tiudor England and we still aren't sure what it actually was.

I feel like The White Queen / White Princess tv show has ruined me for Margaret Beaufort blush she was so unlikable in it, but I keep trying to see beyond it.

I don't like Philippa Gregory' work she seems to focus on the more outlandish theories.

Margaret Beaufort lived a dangerous and eventful life and "won" the war of the Roses despite overwhelming odds against it and constant danger and fear her only child would be killed. I'm not sure how likeable she was - but she was very impressive.

I admire Philippa Gregory for trying to focus on the Tudor (and Plantagenet) women rather than men and the books are entertaining if not extremely accurate. I do like (albeit slightly earlier) The Sunne in Splendour by Sharon Penman (sp?) And the Wolf Hall books of course, I did like Damien Lewis as Henry in the TV version. Wasn't so keen on Mark Rylance as Cromwell although brilliant acting - I just don't "see" Cromwell like that. I'm sure there were about 8 million threads about it at the time

I think they had a more pragmatic view of love/family relationships and didn't get attached to their DCs in the same way we do because a large percentage of DCs didn't survive infancy.

Ann Boleyn's father sat on the panel of men who sentenced her to death!

Ann Boleyn's father sat on the panel of men who sentenced her to death!

She had a right to trial by her peers which at the time meant people of similar status so in her case literally Peers. If you start excluding her family members you'd run put of people for a jury... (I mean there was probably also an element of protecting his own skin because the writing was on the wall).

Emotion isn't always recorded but it doesn't mean it wasn't there. I seem to remember it is said the duke of Norfolk (Anne's grandfather not uncle) cried when he had to condemn the duke of Buckingham to death.

Criminal trials at the time are fascinating (especially the treason ones). You weren't allowed a lawyer so had to defend yourself - hence George Boleyns eloquent defence of himself.

For a king he had very few extra marital affairs.

'love' in the modern sense was invented by the romantics. It wasn't associated with marriage until very recently.

Interesting thread!
My guess is Henry VIII was a spoilt chap who was used to getting anything he wanted. Therefore, he'd enjoy the thrill of courting a woman and the feeling of limerance, but got bored easily. So maybe he was in love at the start but boredom would set in quite soon.
Like a pp, I wonder if Catherine of Aragon had given him a son, he'd still have had mistresses but wouldn't have had the urge/needed to take relationships further.
Yes-I think daughters were seen as commodities to marry as well as they could and this was more important than their happiness. A family's finances and power could be increased by marriage to a wealthy man

[quote WTFIsTheAnswerToThis]@yourestandingonmyneck

In case you find it interesting, this is the text of Katherine of Aragon's last letter to Henry when she knew that her death was imminent. She was amazingly strong and brave. I know Henry was seen to dance and party upon hearing of her death, but I feel he must have felt guilt and regret even if he didn't admit it to himself.

My most dear lord, king and husband,
The hour of my death now drawing on, the tender love I owe you forceth me, my case being such, to commend myself to you, and to put you in remembrance with a few words of the health and safeguard of your soul which you ought to prefer before all worldly matters, and before the care and pampering of your body, for the which you have cast me into many calamities and yourself into many troubles. For my part, I pardon you everything, and I wish to devoutly pray God that He will pardon you also. For the rest, I commend unto you our daughter Mary, beseeching you to be a good father unto her, as I have heretofore desired. I entreat you also, on behalf of my maids, to give them marriage portions, which is not much, they being but three. For all my other servants I solicit the wages due them, and a year more, lest they be unprovided for. Lastly, I make this vow, that mine eyes desire you above all things.
Katharine the Quene
[/quote]
Thank you! Very interesting, indeed.

I do have a bit of a soft spot for Catherine of Aragon....need to do some more reading.

@SarahAndQuack

No, really, they did not have a germ theory of illness. They understood concepts of 'contagion,' but not in the sense of germs.

I think it's a bit unfair to sneer at them keeping windows closed during a woman's confinement. A major cause of death in childbed is puerperal fever, which is not the result of not airing rooms: it's infection transmitted by lack of a germ theory of illness and a lack of antibiotics.

On the plus side, keeping windows closed would keep the room warm and dark and quiet, which probably would have quite a bit of benefit in terms of providing a good environment in which to labour.

I wasn't sneering

@THisbackwithavengeance

I think they had a more pragmatic view of love/family relationships and didn't get attached to their DCs in the same way we do because a large percentage of DCs didn't survive infancy.

Ann Boleyn's father sat on the panel of men who sentenced her to death!

I really, seriously don't think this is true. The year Anne Boleyn had her first pregnancy loss, a man remembered his fourteen children in his will - including a stillborn son, whom he remembered being lively all through his wife's pregnancy. He insisted the child should be included on the family memorial. He obviously remembered and cared about that child, even though the baby died before it was born.

Margaret Beaufort (Henry Vii's mother) only spent about three weeks of his childhood with him - they were separated when he was tiny and then they were briefly reunited when he was in his early teens.

In her letters she's constantly declaring her affection and care for him, but she barely knew him until he was an adult. That does make me think that parent child relationships were different, at least in aristocratic circles.

Sorry, that was the wrong word @yourestandingonmyneck. I guess I mean, it feels unfair to judge. Because there's nothing whatsoever that opening windows would have done to stop the vast majority of women who died in childbirth, from dying. In fact, open windows would have killed a lot of babies, because of the cold.

The thesis I read about grief for children was a lady Danielle Griego. She summaries her work in a blog post here:
radicaldeathstudies.com/2019/08/20/child-death-and-parental-mourning-in-the-middle-ages/

Its a nice short read.

There is also the point that keeping the monarch and all heirs in separate households minimises the risk of losing all of them to disease in one go.

I always felt he had love for Catherine of Aragon, in the sense that he was probably infatuated with her glamorous teenage self when she married Arthur, and her older, educated ways helped guide him after their marriage as he was underprepared as a second son.

It makes me wonder if he had a bit of an inferiority complex as a spoiled but insignificant 'spare', married to a woman who'd been wed to his older brother, not seen as important until his teens, which then evolved into a narcissistic personality disorder which was then validated and exploded by inheriting the throne.

This is interesting if you’re want to know more on the lives of Tudor women www.amazon.co.uk/Hidden-Lives-Tudor-Women-History/dp/1681778041/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?hvlocphy=1006674&hvnetw=g&keywords=the+hidden+lives+of+tudor+women&hvadid=360005945658&qid=1629743539&dchild=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI04bf2uPH8gIV0MLtCh0X-ANNEAAYAiAAEgLxg_D_BwE&hydadcr=17290_1802354&hvdev=m&hvqmt=e&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&hvtargid=kwd-334327691025&adgrpid=74177030846&hvrand=12542514062822665524&sr=8-1

@itssquidstella

Margaret Beaufort (Henry Vii's mother) only spent about three weeks of his childhood with him - they were separated when he was tiny and then they were briefly reunited when he was in his early teens.

In her letters she's constantly declaring her affection and care for him, but she barely knew him until he was an adult. That does make me think that parent child relationships were different, at least in aristocratic circles.

Yes, I agree. Definitely in aristocratic circles.

Seems very sad.

I think he genuinely loved Catherine of Aragon and Jane Seymour. Anne Boleyn he was bewitched by, Anne of Cleeves was a rebound and the rest I reckon were just judged on their abilities to provide an heir.
Love The Tudors!! Fascinating stuff 😊

@itssquidstella

Margaret Beaufort (Henry Vii's mother) only spent about three weeks of his childhood with him - they were separated when he was tiny and then they were briefly reunited when he was in his early teens.

In her letters she's constantly declaring her affection and care for him, but she barely knew him until he was an adult. That does make me think that parent child relationships were different, at least in aristocratic circles.

But you also see this with, for example, mothers whose children were taken into care or adopted, and who are then reunited. It's not as if Margaret had a free choice to see Henry and just didn't fancy it - it must have been quite painful, I think?

@nomoreflyaby

The one I am sure Henry really loved was Anne Boleyn. Look what lengths he went to, to marry her. Whether she was genuinely in love with him is another matter.

Infatuation is not love. He loved the chase

7 year chase??

He did love anne Boleyn. They had an intense and long standing relationship for seven years before they got married and starting having sex. That's not just lust or the chase. Anne was intelligent and educated and by all accounts they explored intellectual concepts together and had a genuine relationship until she didn't produce a son.