Is there anywhere where women don't get pestered and harassed by men?

[FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop]

I feel like in every single environment, public space, workplace etc theres men standing in the wings waiting to harass, peste and intimidate women. I'm nearly 40 and I remember dealing with this shit as a teenager and expecting it to get better - but it hasn't.

We know what it's like for women being harassed on the street and where that leads to - 2 out of 3 girls aged 14 to 21 have experienced harassment but I'm actually surprised it's not higher (it probably is in real life I don't know a single woman who's never experienced harassment) source: https://plan-uk.org/act-for-girls/street-harassment

My niece, who is 18, works at a fast food restaurant and was telling me yesterday that she has to deal with creeps on every single shift. Not just male colleagues invading her personal space, touching her back etc - but she has had to get her manager on more than one occasion to ask a drive thru customer to leave the premises because he won't drive away until she gave him her phone number. She's handed her notice in because the harassment has got so bad and is looking to do factory work where she doesn't have to deal with the public.

I am 20 years older than her and deal with it too even now. I have a game on my phone that I play thats a community based game - eg you can interact with others, swap items, go into each others 'worlds' etc. It's linked to my Facebook so a tiny version of my profile picture comes up next to my username, so people can see I'm female. I get about 15 messages from men a day ranging from explicit, which I report, to "hi lovely can we chat". I just want to play the fucking game without having to sift through creepy messages.

Where the fuck do men get off behaving like this? Who told them it was ok? The above are just 2 examples but it seems to be everywhere.

I feel like the onus is on all women to change too - change jobs, change our profile pictures, don't walk down certain streets, don't walk alone at night etc. No one ever talks about the onus being on all men

And yes NAMALT, but far too many are and it seems to be normalised, and maybe the "men who arent like that" should do their bit to help women and start calling out the men who are?

@NiceGerbil

I see this thread has gone the usual way!

I'm very happy for the women who have never experienced anything dodgy from men.

I do think it varies s lot depending on where you grew up etc (my conclusion from a lot of threads like this).

What I don't get is when it gets into the sort of.

Well this and this and this I don't think it's harrassment!

Sort of implies others are over reacting, or have misinterpreted fine approachable non threatening stuff as creepy scary etc.

But I mean. It's more likely the intent or delivery was different, rather than the woman or girl was just being. Silly or something.

Or "hysterical"

I'm glad to hear that building site behaviour has got better. It used to be a nightmare.
When I was in my 20s I had to walk past a building site to get to work. It was like walking the guantlet. Every day. I took to going a very circuitous route to avoid it, walking a long way to the next station. Awful.

Definitely from around 15 to 29 I was harassed on a daily basis. I worked in pubs and being groped, dealing with sexual language, men who wouldn't take no for an answer was constant. From colleagues and customers.

It's become far less frequent now I'm 40 but still happens occasionally.

I remember being harassed on the school bus when I was in the first year of secondary school. It was a 5th year boy and we were the last two on the bus. He trapped me in my seat and tried to put his hand up my skirt. I had a very sheltered upbringing and didn't really understand sexual things at that point but I knew it was wrong and looking back even more so. He was rubbing himself against me and muttering "little girl". Bloody perv. Then he just stopped and got off the bus. School minimised it and just said he was having a joke, boys will be boys and toughen up. I was scared of being left on the bus with him after that and tried to sit near the driver but he never did it again. Since then I've not had any other really bad experiences. A couple of occasions men have tried to start a conversation when I'm not interested but that wasn't as scary as the bus incident.

I thought I'd left all this crap behind in my younger days but had an incident in my mid-40s from a supplier we were using to move offices. I had to meet him to discuss crates and storage for our records and we were talking in the office when he made a comment about me being "dominant" which I brushed off and continued the work conversation. I then had another meeting at our head office and he shook my hand and tickled my palm, leering at me as he did so.

After the meeting I reported the incidents to our property manager and my line manager and we've never used the company again.

Thankfully that was the last time I've had this shit to deal with. Now early 50s I just seem to get a lot of aggression from men which I'm not sure whether is worse or better to be honest.

It's not a looks thing, I see the most average-looking girls and women being checked out and harrassed by creepy men. It's a power thing.

And it happens to me and I'm 47 so they don't even care how old women are!

@Maireas

I'm glad to hear that building site behaviour has got better. It used to be a nightmare. When I was in my 20s I had to walk past a building site to get to work. It was like walking the guantlet. Every day. I took to going a very circuitous route to avoid it, walking a long way to the next station. Awful.

Yes, if builders do that now they'll get sacked, quite rightly.

@YouSetTheTone

Those places are getting smaller and rarer now that single sex spaces/ groups are being stripped from women and girls under the drive for ‘inclusivity’. There is little sympathy for what you describe op, or for the reasons why women and girls might like single sex spaces.

Oh good lord, so if all the female toilets are left untouched and 'safe', that's the only place we can seek refuge? Someone always has to bring in the trans debate, last I checked it wasn't trans women harassing other women on the street 🙄

I'm glad that men being legally allowed in women's refuges, rape counselling, toilets, changing rooms etc is such a non event for you.

For me, seeing men, whether in a dress and wig, or otherwise, when trying to get myself to safety has very much added to my trauma.

The number of times that I have resorted to hiding in women's toilets is no joke.

It is good for you that you don't find men intimidating in size or their ability to rape you were they minded.

Having suffered csa, gang rape and intimate partner rape, I don't feel so safe in these circumstance.

Transwomen offend at the same rate as all men. They aren't magically lower risk just because they identify as women. If these areas has historically been segregated by sex, why has this now changed?

Sure, YOU don't feel at risk, others do. Many, many others. You don't get to dismiss their experiences.

@Megasausagehead

I'm glad that men being legally allowed in women's refuges, rape counselling, toilets, changing rooms etc is such a non event for you.

For me, seeing men, whether in a dress and wig, or otherwise, when trying to get myself to safety has very much added to my trauma.

The number of times that I have resorted to hiding in women's toilets is no joke.

It is good for you that you don't find men intimidating in size or their ability to rape you were they minded.

Having suffered csa, gang rape and intimate partner rape, I don't feel so safe in these circumstance.

Transwomen offend at the same rate as all men. They aren't magically lower risk just because they identify as women. If these areas has historically been segregated by sex, why has this now changed?

Sure, YOU don't feel at risk, others do. Many, many others. You don't get to dismiss their experiences.

That's a hard post to read, and I'm sure hard to write. It's very raw and honest. I hope you feel safe now and are healing.

I'm 46.

It still happens. Friendliness and helpfulness are perceived as 'interest' or 'openness'. The man who runs my local corner shop asked for phone number last week so he could 'asked some advice'. Er...

I still get beeped at; leered at by men who are iut with their partners; patronised; touched... not as often as when i was younger but still a few times a week.

@Megasausagehead

I'm glad that men being legally allowed in women's refuges, rape counselling, toilets, changing rooms etc is such a non event for you.

For me, seeing men, whether in a dress and wig, or otherwise, when trying to get myself to safety has very much added to my trauma.

The number of times that I have resorted to hiding in women's toilets is no joke.

It is good for you that you don't find men intimidating in size or their ability to rape you were they minded.

Having suffered csa, gang rape and intimate partner rape, I don't feel so safe in these circumstance.

Transwomen offend at the same rate as all men. They aren't magically lower risk just because they identify as women. If these areas has historically been segregated by sex, why has this now changed?

Sure, YOU don't feel at risk, others do. Many, many others. You don't get to dismiss their experiences.

But it's nothing to do with OP's question. OP is talking about a culture of men openly and unashamedly harassing women.

To bring up toilets as a space that is now 'under threat' in the context of this discussion is saying 'well you're not harassed in women's toilets!!!' Which would be a ridiculous and irrelevant response to OP's question.

Might as well say 'well you wouldn't be harassed in your own home!!!' Which again, doesn't add any quality to the discussion on how men are socialised and women and girls are made to feel like it's just 'banter' and they should be flattered.

Can't we stick to the topic please? Street harrassment.

I am on fwr all the time and this annoys me.

The way do many women and girls are hassled just walking down the street is a big issue. So let's talk about that.

I posted on another site about wishing catcalling came with stronger punishment, but the men on that site said it related to trying to flirt and that I was being OTT. They compared it with giving women compliments. It seems there is a distinct male voice that they have a need to attract women this way. Many on the site pointed out that this approach does not work as does the opposite of impress women.

@Enough4me

I posted on another site about wishing catcalling came with stronger punishment, but the men on that site said it related to trying to flirt and that I was being OTT. They compared it with giving women compliments. It seems there is a distinct male voice that they have a need to attract women this way. Many on the site pointed out that this approach does not work as does the opposite of impress women.

This exactly. And women made to feel we should put up with it because 'they're just being nice'. I've been told 'don't you like it when someone tells you you're beautiful?' Ummmm I don't need validation from random men, thanks.

I've now started responding to 'looking nice' and comments to that effect with 'I know'. Throws them.

I think it's a mix of things

The Victorian 'separate spheres' attitude is still lurking.

Outside the home is male territory. Women and girls outdoors are on the territory of men and so men feel ok in exerting their ownership iyswim.

Society as a group generally has the attitude that men will be men. What can you do? They won't change. If women and girls don't like it they should take steps to avoid it. And at the more 'trivial' end. There's no actual harm done so really just put up with it, making a fuss makes you look silly and changes nothing.

Men having a total and frankly deliberate failure to understand/ care how what they do impacts the target. They know they're not dangerous. It was only a compliment! What's the problem?! (Schoolgirl is left shaken).

To the final point.

NO MAN OR GROUP OF MEN thinks that sexually harassing women/ girls on the street will result in a date/ sex.

Of course there's a cohort of women who say it makes them feel good, flattered etc.

Of course those women feel as they do and that's their experience.

What I find interesting though is that they usually have a specific set of circs in mind, or some things in the past.

And then you say well ok but surely you don't like all of it? This and that. They say oh no that's awful but it's Different.

To me it's all much of a muchness.

Of course some men can do being cheeky/ non threatening etc and it doesn't feel horrible. But they are fairly rare surely? In my life they are maybe 1%.

I think there's this thing with some women and also with men A LOT where it gets turned into. Ok so I can't look at a woman any more! I can't smile! I can't say anything nice like I like your shoes to a colleague?!!! This is feminism gawn mad.

The we can't even look at woman any more thing was said angrily in a raised voice to me at work during metoo. He had brought it up! I didn't want to discussb at all.

He was a friend and a ' nice man'.

@NiceGerbil yes that came up on the site too..."but why can't I compliment women, e.g. you have pretty smile and a nice dress?" Even when it was pointed out that context is everything (e.g. fine if your girlfriend) there were men who thought it was their right to judge any women and provide feedback.

Thing is it all (for those who don't like it) boils down to men you don't know having pretty much always assessed you, a woman or girl he does not know whatsoever, and found you to be sexually appealling. And further, thinks yep telling her that is the thing to do.

The flip side is being found lacking and communicating that also. I've had a look and I don't fancy yours much.

For children elderly etc different.

But they don't get approached/ yelled at etc in the same way. From visible puberty to age of invisibility they are telling you that yep or nope you look fuckable.

It's grim.

@ilovesooty

It's not my experience. It happens occasionally but I don't find it's an everyday thing. I'm sorry to hear of your experience though.

Me too

@NiceGerbil

Can't we stick to the topic please? Street harrassment.

I am on fwr all the time and this annoys me.

The way do many women and girls are hassled just walking down the street is a big issue. So let's talk about that.

I was replying to a post on the thread. I personally am not keen on that harassment on the street becoming usual absolutely everywhere women go. Including escape places.

It is covered elsewhere in detail, but the dismissal irked me. I have a lot of respect for you as a poster, but my point was relevant to the thread.

In answer to the original question, maybe a few years ago a gay club would have been safe. But now I doubt there is anywhere free from it.

It's like these generations have become addicted to the brief high that comes from pursuit, whether in real life or online.

What could have groomed their minds so effectively to consider harassing women multiple times every day to be so rewarding?

Is there something we can point to, something easily accessible, that trains people to repeat a behaviour until it pays off while simultaneously removing any empathy or feeling towards the subject?

Monday I don't think the underlying attitudes have got better or worse-

There's just a new medium to do it which is more distant so easier to objectify, often anon so no concerns about over stepping a line that holds some back IRL.

It's a giant endless sweetshop but it's horrible men selecting a pick n mix from endless potential targets.

IMO.

Having said that online MRA, incel groups, the impact of children being exposed to porn young is a whole massive issue but again, probably a different thread!