Is there anywhere where women don't get pestered and harassed by men?

[FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop]

I feel like in every single environment, public space, workplace etc theres men standing in the wings waiting to harass, peste and intimidate women. I'm nearly 40 and I remember dealing with this shit as a teenager and expecting it to get better - but it hasn't.

We know what it's like for women being harassed on the street and where that leads to - 2 out of 3 girls aged 14 to 21 have experienced harassment but I'm actually surprised it's not higher (it probably is in real life I don't know a single woman who's never experienced harassment) source: https://plan-uk.org/act-for-girls/street-harassment

My niece, who is 18, works at a fast food restaurant and was telling me yesterday that she has to deal with creeps on every single shift. Not just male colleagues invading her personal space, touching her back etc - but she has had to get her manager on more than one occasion to ask a drive thru customer to leave the premises because he won't drive away until she gave him her phone number. She's handed her notice in because the harassment has got so bad and is looking to do factory work where she doesn't have to deal with the public.

I am 20 years older than her and deal with it too even now. I have a game on my phone that I play thats a community based game - eg you can interact with others, swap items, go into each others 'worlds' etc. It's linked to my Facebook so a tiny version of my profile picture comes up next to my username, so people can see I'm female. I get about 15 messages from men a day ranging from explicit, which I report, to "hi lovely can we chat". I just want to play the fucking game without having to sift through creepy messages.

Where the fuck do men get off behaving like this? Who told them it was ok? The above are just 2 examples but it seems to be everywhere.

I feel like the onus is on all women to change too - change jobs, change our profile pictures, don't walk down certain streets, don't walk alone at night etc. No one ever talks about the onus being on all men

And yes NAMALT, but far too many are and it seems to be normalised, and maybe the "men who arent like that" should do their bit to help women and start calling out the men who are?

My regular harassment stopped in my early 50s which has been a huge relief. Now at 60 I'm happily invisible. My respect for most men has plummeted over my lifetime. I've found that inbuilt male entitlement, which lies behind nearly all examples of harassment towards women, is still as dreadful now as in my younger days as my daughters and neices, now in their 20s, will sadly confirm. Very depressing.

Going back to the op's question :
Places I felt safe included: male gay clubs in the 80s (I could dance around for hours without being harassed - fantastic freedom) ; mother and toddler groups, NCT groups, playgroups when kids were little. Sewing/quilting groups (which are majority female).

Places I have been harassed but would have expected not to have been include: maternity hospital (literally screamed at by a male registrar for daring to question some treatment he tried to foist on me, but which I knew was incompatible with my long standing liver condition; a midwife had to come and rescue me; it was terrifying); church (after I was widowed quite young, late 40s, I was propositioned by several men who had previously seemed entirely respectable; including 3 married men - I was really shocked. When I complained to the male minister he fobbed me off completely, and said this 'attention' would pass, that's just what men do).

Such a shame this thread has turned into a pissing contest of who is harassed the least.

This is about who ARE harassed

Also the 'brainwashed' thing - no one is calling women stupid FFS.

When I was younger I was (what I recognise now as) harassed but at the time I thought it was banter/flirting/the way men are. I was driving through a city once late at night and some guy got in my car and asked me out. At the time I hated it but wouldn't have labelled it as harassment, because patriarchy/age/the era/maturity level. So I did nothing except ask him to leave which he eventually did. These days I'd push him out the car or call the police because that IS harassment.

I was driving through a city once late at night and some guy got in my car and asked me out.

Bloody hell, that’s really frightening.

@igelkott2021

DAILY occurrence? Where on earth do you all live?

Other than the odd shouted comment from a van when I am out running I can't think of any recent (last five years) occurrences.

I did get squirted by a water pistol from a car the other night when I was running but I was in a group with 3 blokes and they got it too.

Well my niece lives in a naice Yorkshire town. And yes, she is harassed every shift - from male customers saying "thanks gorgeous" to them insisting she gives them her number to inappropriate touching. She's at work FFS. She's not a liar, she's barely out of childhood and this is her lived experience

@Mintjulia

Not sure about is being worse in the U.K. I went to Italy with a girlfriend when we were about 23.

The local men made our time a misery. By the 3rd day we were keeping to the hotel garden and was relieved to come home.

Agree with this, we used to visit Italy as children and from aged 10 men sitting in piazzas would applaud as I went last. This was up and down the country and I believe still very much happens

It's a whole different way of life out on the streets now, regarding some males behaviour.. I can just remember when I was about 17/18 ish in the 1960 era, when you might get whistled at,or shouted at by a group of a friendly bunch of guys on a building site, whilst you walked past in your high heels and mini skirt, so no problems there, it was just a bit of fun, and no one was bothered.

What a fucking depressing statement.

Is this MN or the DM?

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop

Such a shame this thread has turned into a pissing contest of who is harassed the least.

This is about who ARE harassed

It hasnt. All women have done is said that they're not harrassed in responce to your OP which implied all women were harrassed everywhere.

Short answer: Nope. There is no place.

Long answer: no.. none.

(Maybe in utero- when a female girl is inside of her mother and know one can see her). Does the sexual harassment and gross comments about sexing a pregnant woman count? Then that’s debatable.

@Letsallscreamatthesistene I disagree, it has turned into a pissing contest and I stand firm that I don't know any women who haven't experienced harassment. And as I said I expect women who think they haven't probably have and haven't seen it or don't count it as harrasment

@MarshmallowSwede well apparently pregnancy and lactation porn is a thing so not even sure babies in utero escape this perverse way men are

@Pralinelatte

My regular harassment stopped in my early 50s which has been a huge relief. Now at 60 I'm happily invisible. My respect for most men has plummeted over my lifetime. I've found that inbuilt male entitlement, which lies behind nearly all examples of harassment towards women, is still as dreadful now as in my younger days as my daughters and neices, now in their 20s, will sadly confirm. Very depressing.

Going back to the op's question :
Places I felt safe included: male gay clubs in the 80s (I could dance around for hours without being harassed - fantastic freedom) ; mother and toddler groups, NCT groups, playgroups when kids were little. Sewing/quilting groups (which are majority female).

Places I have been harassed but would have expected not to have been include: maternity hospital (literally screamed at by a male registrar for daring to question some treatment he tried to foist on me, but which I knew was incompatible with my long standing liver condition; a midwife had to come and rescue me; it was terrifying); church (after I was widowed quite young, late 40s, I was propositioned by several men who had previously seemed entirely respectable; including 3 married men - I was really shocked. When I complained to the male minister he fobbed me off completely, and said this 'attention' would pass, that's just what men do).

I’m with you there.

I’m really struggling with male entitlement. From men in the street, my own customers and men in my family (DH, my dad, my cousin….).
I very much struggle to square that with the fact I have two older teen boys….

[quote FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop]@Letsallscreamatthesistene I disagree, it has turned into a pissing contest and I stand firm that I don't know any women who haven't experienced harassment. And as I said I expect women who think they haven't probably have and haven't seen it or don't count it as harrasment[/quote]
I think people have said that most have experienced it, just not everyday. Women have also said being over weight or of an older age group seem to experience it less. You can disagree all you want, but you have no right in calling women naieve or silly for coming here and stating their lived experience, even it it doesnt comply with your view

Oh gosh, I am now fat and must say that whilst the sexual harassment directed at me has mostly stopped. Men still like to point out how unattractive I am. As though being attractive to them should be my priority.

I spent many years being touched, raped, assaulted. I was particularly unlucky I think. But I do see the ongoing misogyny. That I am no longer a good enough woman.

I went on a diabetes education day with my DD15 about body image. The message of the day, from women, was that if you are fat you have no value in society. All of the other mums were crying. I was angry.

Who do we need to look good for? I don't like the attention I get for looking good. I choose to be safer and invisible.

maybe the "men who arent like that" should do their bit to help women and start calling out the men who are?

I did this. I was 18 and had just moved to a sleepy west country town. It probably did not help I stood out as a young male stranger. Leaving a pub one evening, a colleague and I heard a woman in distress in a shop doorway, we discovered being sexually assaulted and asking for help. We went to her aid only to eventually get surrounded by some other local yobs who decided to beat us up. I spent a few nights in hospital, had a blood top up and still have a facial scar today. The galling thing was the young woman spitting at us and telling us to fuck off after they all cleared away.

This is all down to male violence and yes NAMALT by far, but all men should call out this behaviour. Otherwise it will not stop. I would do it again. Not only does it affect my daughters, but it affects my sons too. It is getting worse and I believe porn is a big driver - what is it with all this spitting and choking? - and so is the way social media polarises people and creates peer pressure on young men and women. I can count on five fingers the men I know who I truly respect, but I would not call any friends particularly. I have overhead far too many conversations to know what even good men really think about women.

Who told them it was OK? Mr Boris Johnson for one.

To answer the original question, despite concerns raised on other threads about the transgender issues, Hampstead Ladies Pond. I don't go there as I cannot swim in open water, but I know women who do and love it.

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop I don’t understand why you started this thread. You clearly hold a certain view and don’t seem to be willing to accept that your experience isn’t universal. Most women are saying they have at some point been harassed, some women are saying they have never been and others are saying it has fluctuated through their lives. Some have noted that they perceive these changes to have been in response to changes in themselves eg weight gain or aging. In response you and other posters have decried these women as not being able to recognise harassment and therefore invalidating their viewpoint. You have also dismissed their observations regarding changes in harassment levels in response to aging or weight instead insisting that this has no bearing on how and why women are harassed. No one has said that women aren’t harassed they have merely reported that their experience is not that it is a frequent occurrence in every setting.

Yeah I was harassed and gawped at from 13 - 35 ish. Tedious. Not in women only spaces. My first job was tricky older male partners were creepy. One even sent me a photo of a female statue nude from behind. My looks and figure were admiringly discussed in my presence. Fun times.

Grew up rurally and villages aren’t immune lots of vile builder types in their white vans to shout obscenities at school girls 🙄

@ilovesooty

It's not my experience. It happens occasionally but I don't find it's an everyday thing. I'm sorry to hear of your experience though.

Same. We're lucky I guess.

I don’t think there is anywhere left, no.

Even the women only Facebook groups I’m in, and my local women only gym, accept men into them now.

I get harassed probably at least weekly.

It’s not even sexual most of the time.

I obviously have resting bitch face because I get “smile love/cheer up love, it might never happen”, never from women, only from men. And I’d bet these men never say that to other men.

Just yesterday I’m walking my dog in a field when a bloke in his mid 50’s walking towards me from the side shouts over “you should be wearing shorts today love, it’s roasting hot”. At the point he shouted at me I had not made eye contact or given any indication that I want him to interfere in my day in any way. I debated telling him how fucking creepy he sounded but as there was nobody else around I did the usual polite smile, walk a bit faster and hope that he didn’t try and engage me any further. He’s no doubt one of those arseholes that thinks he’s an affable chap, the kind that would roll his eyes and no doubt say “bloody hell you can’t even say hello to a woman these days”.

And telling women who perceive themselves not to have been harassed that they have been but just are not able to recognise it, is just as bad as dismissing the experiences of women who perceive themselves to have been harassed by saying that ‘it was banter’ or just a joke. Neither is acceptable.

@PumpkinKlNG

Well I don’t get harassed ever so 🤷‍♀️ I assume it’s my weight as it stopped happening once I got fat

I'm size 10 and it very rarely happens to me. Not sure what it is that triggers the creeps but it doesn't seem to be weight related.

Tbh 95% of 18yo have been sexually harassed.
So I very much doubt any 40yo has NEVER been harassed

Maybe they haven’t been for a while.

There is also no doubt that things are better nowadays . And that some situations seems to ‘invite’ that sort of behaviour. So some people might well be able to avoid those trigger situations.

But going as far as saying you’ve never been harassed? Nope.

@MyriadeOfThings

Tbh 95% of 18yo have been sexually harassed. So I very much doubt any 40yo has NEVER been harassed

Maybe they haven’t been for a while.

There is also no doubt that things are better nowadays . And that some situations seems to ‘invite’ that sort of behaviour. So some people might well be able to avoid those trigger situations.

But going as far as saying you’ve never been harassed? Nope.

I think there is only 1 person on this thread who has said that. Shame you choose to disbelieve a woman talking about her experiences.

I personally haven’t been harassed.

But it is down to men not to harass. I wonder whether body cams and taking pics/videos as evidence of bad behaviour to report to police/employers may help.

I think that only fear of consequences will stop it and I think the most effective way would be for criminal and/or employment sanctions.