Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

[LiberaceTrumpet]

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

I think this thread might end filled up on sentiments of equality and support for transgender people. I think the OP can consider this a success! All the best to those championing equality and challenging prejudice.

Gender sums up to are you perceived by the humans around you as a man or a woman? This can be changed.

Sex is the biology, the DNA. This cannot be changed.

Interesting post, Plan! And I agree that all of this just seems to be a way of complicating the ideas of masculinity and femininity. (Which of course either sex can have in various combinations)
So do you think that a gender can "match" a sex? Is it not comparing two ultimately very different things?
As another poster put it on another thread, is it like asking if your race matches your nationality?

How disingenuous. You don't want support, you want an echo chamber. Try Reddit, GC women aren't allowed there.

Why are you asking if people support trans women and not trans people? Whenever I see someone talking about trans rights, no matter what the question is, it's always about trans women never trans men. Why does no one care about trans men? It's especially weird to ignore them when asking questions about trans rights on a parenting site, as trans men are the ones that can give birth. It's bizarre, I really don't get it.

Try Reddit, GC women aren't allowed there.
Yes. Mumsnet has a high percentage of mums who have real life experience that sex does matter. Not sure why people expect us to think that it is just a construct - my DH doesn't have any birth injuries.

I think anyone has the right to live however they want however I think sex based rights trump the right of a male to be seen as a woman. A TW hasn't been brought up and socialised as female and will never truly understand what it's like to be a woman both socially and biologically. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to live as one - but they are not one. I have never met a women in RL that thinks a TW is the same as one of the female variety and should be able to participate in sports etc - and I really don't understand why some people do. I have to say I have become more wary of TW since all this TWAW began. We used to be able to live side by side with an understanding that we were different. Now it seems nothing short of total removal of females as a sex class will do - and I can't support that. I also know that the majority of the population have no idea this battle is going on

@gottakeeponmovin

I think anyone has the right to live however they want however I think sex based rights trump the right of a male to be seen as a woman. A TW hasn't been brought up and socialised as female and will never truly understand what it's like to be a woman both socially and biologically. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to live as one - but they are not one. I have never met a women in RL that thinks a TW is the same as one of the female variety and should be able to participate in sports etc - and I really don't understand why some people do. I have to say I have become more wary of TW since all this TWAW began. We used to be able to live side by side with an understanding that we were different. Now it seems nothing short of total removal of females as a sex class will do - and I can't support that. I also know that the majority of the population have no idea this battle is going on

I agree with everything you say. And yes, the most frightening thing is the ground that's being lost while most of the population remain completely ignorant to it. Dangerous times.

And yes, the most frightening thing is the ground that's being lost while most of the population remain completely ignorant to it. Dangerous times.

They are indeed. My sisters had no idea about it, bizarrely.

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]CatherinedeBourgh
Yes, but I think competitive sports s a pretty stupid and male centric thing anyway so it’s no big loss to me if they lose all interest.

Have you considered the ramifications for the physical and psychological health of women and girls?

Currently:

"There areover 700,000 moreinactive womenthan men in England"

"Nearly 60% of girls aren’t meeting recommended exercise guidelines"

www.womeninsport.org/[/quote]
This is partly why I think competitive sport is so toxic. By making sport something you have to ‘be good’ at, and that being good only being a relative measure, you ensure that the majority of children, who will be ‘not good’ at sport will have no incentive todo any.

If we make lots of activity a normal part of everyday life instead of a competition, the positive health effects will be much greater. In fact in a highly competitive elite sport or nothing scenario the health effects can be negative both ways: athletes who overtrain and go from injury to injury and the vast mass who don’t move enough.

Makes more money though.

I know the old dictionary definition of “woman” is “adult female”

No, that's the current dictionary definition.

Men cannot become women (and vice versa), no more than cats can become squirrels. Women are adult human females.

I once read a fascinating novel called "Dictionary of the Khazars", of which there were male and female versions. The only difference was a single paragraph.

A bit like real life

This is partly why I think competitive sport is so toxic. By making sport something you have to ‘be good’ at, and that being good only being a relative measure, you ensure that the majority of children, who will be ‘not good’ at sport will have no incentive todo any.

I take it then that you must also then believe any form of competition is toxic. That nobody's achievements should be celebrated above any one elses. So, no Booker prize, no Nobel prizes then.

Any success should be completely ignored lest others 'will have no incentive to do any' in all fields? Because how can you apply this to sport and not every other aspect of life.

Do you honestly think that this is a healthy approach?

Doesn't make a difference to a broken neck or a fractured skull if they were done playing for fun or competitively. Either way it fucks up your life.
Girls aren't going to feel more comfortable getting changed or showered next to someone with a penis because they are about to/have just played for fun rather than in a competition.
Allowing male bodies into female sports and female spaces is not just about elite sport it's about every level of sports from Parkrun, yoga classes and social, fun netball leagues populated by middle aged women that hasn't touched a ball in 30 years all the way up to Olympic medals and a whole lot in-between.
But hey, girls should "be nice" and not get sweaty and certainly not care about winning right?

This is partly why I think competitive sport is so toxic. By making sport something you have to ‘be good’ at, and that being good only being a relative measure, you ensure that the majority of children, who will be ‘not good’ at sport will have no incentive todo any.

Some people like sport women and men. It doesn't all have to be about exercise and it's unrealistic to expect to be good or adequate (perhaps people shouldn't ever strive to stand out) at absolutely everything. There is nothing wrong with competition, in a healthy way. You have some very odd ideas.

Is this supposed to be progressive?

I take it then that you must also then believe any form of competition is toxic. That nobody's achievements should be celebrated above any one elses. So, no Booker prize, no Nobel prizes then.

Any success should be completely ignored lest others 'will have no incentive to do any' in all fields? Because how can you apply this to sport and not every other aspect of life.

Do you honestly think that this is a healthy approach?

Exactly. I can't take this poster particularly seriously, to be honest.

*Competitive sport is so toxic
*
This sort of opinion is why we're in the mess we're in.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with competition. Not amongst children, not amongst adults.

“Competitive sport is toxic”

Absolutely give over. Humans have enjoyed competing for centuries.
I love watching competitive sport.

A lot of kids aren’t academic and one of the few places they can excel is sport. One of mine was like this. He spent all of primary school never being good at anything, because sports days were ‘non competitive’. He should have been encouraged and supported as he was really athletic but never was. So he could never shine at anything.

Because of the predominantly middle parents pushed for non competitive sports - where their children were regularly given ‘gold stars’ for sitting still, writing neatly, on high level reading books etc. It’s a form of snobbery.

@WalkersAreNotTheOnlyCrisps

“Competitive sport is toxic”

Absolutely give over. Humans have enjoyed competing for centuries.
I love watching competitive sport.

Honesty not even worth arguing with. Ridiculous.

Competitive sport is toxic? So it doesn’t matter? It’s a good thing if there’s a shake up? Or it’s dismantled?
Except of course, men’s sport is unaffected largely.
So just women’s sport then.
Funny that.

Competitive sport is toxic? So it doesn’t matter? It’s a good thing if there’s a shake up? Or it’s dismantled?
Except of course, men’s sport is unaffected largely.
So just women’s sport then.
Funny that.

YY. Deeply sexist. "I don't care about sport and it's stereotypically male so you shouldn't either, it's a non issue".

If you get rid of competitive sport.
You have to get rid of all exams. Get rid of universities. Get rid of any jobs that you have to apply for (that is competition).
Get rid of doctors, plumbers, lawyers. Anything that needs proof of skills.

Anyone who thinks competitive sport is “toxic” is, of course, free not to participate or to withdraw their child from.

But everyone should have a chance to excel at something if possible, and for many girls, sport is it.

I don't think I'll get over just how sexist this "progressive" movement is.