Manners - are there any you didn't know about until you were older?

[CheeseToastieLove]

Is there anything you didn't realise was bad manners until you were an adult. Things you weren't told when you were young? I didn't realise it was good manners to leave your alcohol at a party when you were leaving until I was in my late 20s. Always took my half full bottle home with me! Cringe. My friend was never taught it was bad manners to start eating before everyone's meals had arrived until she was in her 30s. She was always half finished before everyone had been served.

@freakyfridays
Your claim that something highly unusual to most of us is ‘pretty obvious’ has clearly offended a lot of people.
I think I did read about the bread roll thing ‘Watching the English’ about twenty years ago, but it seemed obscure enough to safely ignore.

@Gwenhwyfar that is something those friends presumably agreed to, which is fine. I’m talking about double-dipping when the rest of the hummus-eaters haven’t agreed to it.

I’d put it on a par with drinking milk straight out of the bottle - of course you can do that at home, if you are the only one drinking it, but if you do it with communal milk in the work fridge, you are skanky.

[quote ButtercupSquash]@freakyfridays
Your claim that something highly unusual to most of us is ‘pretty obvious’ has clearly offended a lot of people.
I think I did read about the bread roll thing ‘Watching the English’ about twenty years ago, but it seemed obscure enough to safely ignore.[/quote]
I mean that nicely, but "most of us" posters on MN is hardly representative.

In doubt, follow the most basic rule and copy what the host(ess) does

These threads always repeat multiple times that it's correct in America to cut up one's food at the start and then just stab each bite with a fork. This is wrong -- each piece must be cut separately. If you've seen people doing it wrong, as this thread shows, there are people everywhere who weren't taught or don't care.

It is true that, except for cutting, we tend to keep a hand in our lap. This is a big difference to Europe. It's how I was taught. I don't know how the metropolitans do it but in my small-town upbringing it was one of the main table manner rules.

@freakyfridays

Nobody knows why some posh people only butter a small part at a time, or why or how it came about.

because you don't make a sandwich when you are having a normal diner?

Still not sure what it has to do with being posh (because it hasn't) but it's pretty obvious you don't start buttering the whole thing at the diner table?

Sorry, but that’s a nuts explanation!

Normally, the rolls served before dinner are fairly tiny. And I don’t think anyone here has indicated they’re going to make a sandwich out of it!

I “know” the supposed rule around how to break and butter a roll. But I wouldn’t judge someone for not doing so. I would maybe silently judge if they saved said buttered roll and then added some triple-cooked truffle fries it!

@freakyfridays

does it offend you?

of course not. But it's generally a lot more pleasant when people have good table manners, you don't even notice them eating for a start. It's also much easier, especially when you are the host.

I AM wary to offend someone if we clearly don't have the same habits or rules. When it's cultural, you can research it, but when it's your own and the completely opposite of what is natural to you and everything you can read, it's.. tricky.

“When it’s your own ...”. Ending in “tricky”

Flipping Nora, phrases like that don’t show manners, class or etiquette to me.

I know, and do, it the correct way. But still find it slightly weird that the “correct” way is tearing at food with your fingers!

Blimey! I think that @FreakyFridays missed the early helpful posts which distinguished between manners and etiquette.

Chewing with your mouth closed - good manners (nobody wants to see your mushed up food)

Holding the door open for somebody - good manners (thoughtful because you're making sure that the door doesn't slam in their face)

Taking shoes off to go in someone's house - etiquette (cultural norm)
Keeping shoes on to go in someone's house - etiquette (cultural norm)

Asking the host if they'd like shoes on or off - manners (showing consideration to host)

Not commenting on whether guest has automatically kept shoes on or has taken them off even though they've chosen the option that you don't really like - manners (avoiding embarrassing the guest).

This wierd (to me) custom of breaking off bits of a roll and then just buttering the piece that you are about to eat is most certainly etiquette.

I've got pretty good table manners and I'm aware of and use certain conventions (hold my knife and fork "correctly", can lay a table, know that you work from the outside in with cutlery, put my knife and fork together to show that I've finished eating etc) but have never heard of this before this thread let alone see anyone do it.

I've never been to a formal dinner so concur with those posters who guess it's something which posh people do. To me that's Upper Middle Class and Upper Class.

It just goes to show that if you are brought up to follow certain conventions and if people around you also follow those conventions, you fail to realise that they are just the cultural norms of the society in which you are mixing and you end up conflating etiquette with good manners.

Cariadlet - yes and a complete inability to see their way is not the only way/that their conventions are just social conventions within a narrow subset.

I would maybe silently judge if they saved said buttered roll and then added some triple-cooked truffle fries it!

Oh come on, if you are eating somewhere serving fries, unless it is a banquet with the Queen, YANBU to make a chip butty with the bread rolls

Furries

Flipping Nora, phrases like that don’t show manners, class or etiquette to me.
and phrase like this don't show a great understanding.

What's so insulting about saying your "own culture" in your "own country" which was my point? What exactly should have I said that didn't hurt your sensibility?
What's offensive of being mindful when being invited by someone in another country, or from another religion but pointing out that it shouldn't be so difficult with people from the same culture/nationality etc

I don't understand the posters thinking that formal diners etc are related to the upper class either.

But even I know that everyone believe they have excellent manners, and an excellent sense of humour.

@SavingsQuestions

Cariadlet - yes and a complete inability to see their way is not the only way/that their conventions are just social conventions within a narrow subset.

some posters might need to travel a bit more....

Different people having different expectations is pretty obvious when you do.

SOME people having no manners and priding themselves on that fact does show a narrow mindset though.

@Changechangychange

I would maybe silently judge if they saved said buttered roll and then added some triple-cooked truffle fries it!

Oh come on, if you are eating somewhere serving fries, unless it is a banquet with the Queen, YANBU to make a chip butty with the bread rolls

😂.

Im a bit of an anomaly, in that I don’t like chip butties in the traditional sense. I don’t like butter in sandwiches, I make them without it. The only time I have butter is spread thinly on a roll or piece of baguette, never in a roll/sandwich with filling.

So a chip sandwich made in the usual way, to me, is just too stodgy and chewy. I think some on here would pass out if I were to add a generous dollop of ketchup to my pre-dinner roll 🤣

[quote Changechangychange]@Gwenhwyfar that is something those friends presumably agreed to, which is fine. I’m talking about double-dipping when the rest of the hummus-eaters haven’t agreed to it.

I’d put it on a par with drinking milk straight out of the bottle - of course you can do that at home, if you are the only one drinking it, but if you do it with communal milk in the work fridge, you are skanky.[/quote]
Yes, I'm not arguing in favour of double dipping. I'm trying to explain to you why not everyone even thinks about it.

@cariadlet

Blimey! I think that *@FreakyFridays* missed the early helpful posts which distinguished between manners and etiquette.

Chewing with your mouth closed - good manners (nobody wants to see your mushed up food)

Holding the door open for somebody - good manners (thoughtful because you're making sure that the door doesn't slam in their face)

Taking shoes off to go in someone's house - etiquette (cultural norm)
Keeping shoes on to go in someone's house - etiquette (cultural norm)

Asking the host if they'd like shoes on or off - manners (showing consideration to host)

Not commenting on whether guest has automatically kept shoes on or has taken them off even though they've chosen the option that you don't really like - manners (avoiding embarrassing the guest).

This wierd (to me) custom of breaking off bits of a roll and then just buttering the piece that you are about to eat is most certainly etiquette.

I've got pretty good table manners and I'm aware of and use certain conventions (hold my knife and fork "correctly", can lay a table, know that you work from the outside in with cutlery, put my knife and fork together to show that I've finished eating etc) but have never heard of this before this thread let alone see anyone do it.

I've never been to a formal dinner so concur with those posters who guess it's something which posh people do. To me that's Upper Middle Class and Upper Class.

It just goes to show that if you are brought up to follow certain conventions and if people around you also follow those conventions, you fail to realise that they are just the cultural norms of the society in which you are mixing and you end up conflating etiquette with good manners.

The thing is you've made an abitrary decision here on what is good manners and what is etiqette. They're a matter of opinion to some extent. I wasn't taught by my parents not to eat with my mouth full - it was a posh girl at school who told me so it's not universal and just because someone does it, doesn't mean they're trying to offend you on purpose.

Holding the door open is something that really annoys me if I'm far away from the door as it forces me to rush so I don't think it's always considerate. Especially those passive aggressive people upthread who are then rude to people who don't thank them for holding the door open when they never asked for it in the first place.

"I've got pretty good table manners and I'm aware of and use certain conventions (hold my knife and fork "correctly""

Yes, but you'd go to another country and you'd be wrong. Just shows how arbitrary it all is.

"It just goes to show that if you are brought up to follow certain conventions and if people around you also follow those conventions, you fail to realise that they are just the cultural norms of the society in which you are mixing and you end up conflating etiquette with good manners."

Exactly right.

@Gwenhwyfar
The thing is you've made an abitrary decision here on what is good manners and what is etiqette. They're a matter of opinion to some extent
I've tried really hard not to do that.

I wasn't taught by my parents not to eat with my mouth full - it was a posh girl at school who told me so it's not universal and just because someone does it, doesn't mean they're trying to offend you on purpose.
I wouldn't assume that someone was trying to offend me but I would think that they hadn't stop to consider what it was like having to look at someone's chewed up food. That's why I think it comes down to manners rather than etiquette.

Holding the door open is something that really annoys me if I'm far away from the door as it forces me to rush so I don't think it's always considerate. Especially those passive aggressive people upthread who are then rude to people who don't thank them for holding the door open when they never asked for it in the first place
Absolutely. Sometimes it's a matter of judgement whether it's polite to open the door or whether you are inconveniencing the person behind by forcing them to move more quickly. But I gave it as an example of manners rather than etiquette because I said that it was to avoid letting a door slam in someone's face which implies that it's good manners to hold a door if someone is moving through the doorway just behind you (either stand aside for them or hold it behind you and pass it to them; just not let go so that it swings back at them).

I've got pretty good table manners and I'm aware of and use certain conventions (hold my knife and fork "correctly"
Yes, but you'd go to another country and you'd be wrong. Just shows how arbitrary it all is

Which is why in that paragraph, I distinguished between manners and conventions (such as the way to hold the knife and fork) and said that etiquette is just a cultural convention.

"Which is why in that paragraph, I distinguished between manners and conventions (such as the way to hold the knife and fork) and said that etiquette is just a cultural convention."

All the examples are though. I'm sure there are cultures where seeing inside someone's mouth is not a bad thing.
I had it really drummed into me to cover my mouth with my hand when coughing and now that's "wrong", but it's not something I can change easily.

“ Gwenhwyfar
I'm sure there are cultures where seeing inside someone's mouth is not a bad thing.”

I had to laugh!😀

@ScrollingLeaves

“ Gwenhwyfar I'm sure there are cultures where seeing inside someone's mouth is not a bad thing.”

I had to laugh!😀

Why, don't you believe me?

My parents taught me you must say 'no thank you' when offered anything.

“Gwenhwyfar

ScrollingLeaves
“ Gwenhwyfar
I'm sure there are cultures where seeing inside someone's mouth is not a bad thing.”

“I had to laugh!😀”

“Why, don't you believe me?“

I laughed with genuine happy amusement because of the way you put it, and because you are right in principle: it just might be true though I have never heard of it!

Isn’t there a culture where it polite to belch because it shows appreciation?

Eating with a hand, which is normal in India, is obviously different from the traditional British use of ranks of cutlery.

No doubt there are many more examples of vastly different approaches to manners.

So I was not making fun of your point.

@DipSwimSwoosh

My parents taught me you must say 'no thank you' when offered anything.

Oh God, is that in the expectation that the person offering will insist or are you really supposed to sit there with nothing to eat or drink?

"My parents taught me you must say 'no thank you' when offered anything."

My parents taught me never, ever to decline anything offered, that would be rude.

“Today 21:55 NewMatress

"My parents taught me you must say 'no thank you' when offered anything."

My parents taught me never, ever to decline anything offered, that would be rude.”

That is extreme but, come to think of it, an attitude generally underlying politeness I would say. It is an idea that one way or another can sometimes be very dangerous for women especially.

We definitely need to be able to shout ‘no’, and not even add the ‘thank you’.

I realised the other day the reason I know a lot of these is from the animated wind in the willows film from the 80s. Those animals had impecible manners!