Manners - are there any you didn't know about until you were older?

[CheeseToastieLove]

Is there anything you didn't realise was bad manners until you were an adult. Things you weren't told when you were young? I didn't realise it was good manners to leave your alcohol at a party when you were leaving until I was in my late 20s. Always took my half full bottle home with me! Cringe. My friend was never taught it was bad manners to start eating before everyone's meals had arrived until she was in her 30s. She was always half finished before everyone had been served.

@Sugarcrash1

I was never taught anything about making a toast or raising your glass. Someone with German connections said you have to raise your glass and look the person making the toast in the eye otherwise it’s seven years bad sex: a combination of manners and superstition. Also some people reckon you have to clink glasses with everyone or not at all. Is that good manners or just superstition?

I think this was now is somewhat superstition and nobody would really think you bad mannered for not clinking glasses with everyone and meeting their eye (indeed, at a large table it’s impossible); but I believe the tradition originated because it was essentially a way of indicating to those dining with you that you hadn’t poisoned their wine and were honourable enough enough to meet their gaze. But because times move on, it’s a piece of etiquette which is redundant.

@daisypond
Accept that most (not all) people in the UK under 40 are essentially from a different culture from you where taking shoes off is just a matter of respect as in Japan.
I think it’s normal in large parts of Northern Europe.

@ButtercupSquash
Any evidence for that assertion that most people under 40 in the U.K. take their shoes off and it’s a matter of respect?

All the people at the parties I was referring to, and also the friend who kept the slippers for guests to don at her door, are and were all very much over 40!

I dont know any under 40s who don't take shoes off...

But probably varies by area etc.

Idk me and all of my friends agree that double dipping is allowed because otherwise you're left with half a crisp that's dry. Bollocks to that. The trick is dip, bite, then turn the damn crisp around so the unbutton edge is dipped. Voila!

Equally rounds, if you don't want to join the round then you don't. All fine. I might want an £8 cocktail and I don't want you buying it if you're on a £4 drink.

I think the world is moving on from those two. And if they're not, then it should.

And yes, all my friends under 40 take their shoes off at parties. Especially heels (wooden floors). It's seen as disgusting to keep them on in someone's home. I think the internet has spread this to younger people as I often see Americans criticised by Europeans and Asians for keeping shoes on in the house.

@CorianderBee so you get dressed in a nice dress etc for a party but the shoes are not relevent as you take them off for the party? Does this young people these days spend a lot less on shoes? And what about shorties who like a heel? And what is the etiquette around tights? Is it OK to stand there in your nude tights? A laddering risk surely?

I dont know any under 40s who don't take shoes off

For me it was more a middle-age thing - and a Hinch-followers thing (going with the trendy sparkly grey carpets).

I look like a silly lump in a dress with no heels on (short and not slim, large of boob). I think I am glad my days of trying to pull men at parties are long gone. Not sure I would have the confidence with no heels on!

as I often see Americans criticised by Europeans and Asians for keeping shoes on in the house.

Asian possibly, but it's not a thing for "Europeans" to take their shoes off in general.

@daisypond
Well, there seems to be quite a bit of evidence on this thread. There’s agreement that it became more and more widespread in the 80s. It seems to have become the norm during my lifetime.
I do it out of respect so I suppose my assumption is that everyone else does.

[quote theDudesmummy]@CorianderBee so you get dressed in a nice dress etc for a party but the shoes are not relevent as you take them off for the party? Does this young people these days spend a lot less on shoes? And what about shorties who like a heel? And what is the etiquette around tights? Is it OK to stand there in your nude tights? A laddering risk surely?[/quote]
I don't actually really recognise the sort of party where you're dressed up in your finery but at someone's house - in my experience (post university or teenage years) house parties are small informal gatherings, you'd look mad in a cocktail dress. I would guess this is about house prices, though, I don't know anyone under 40 in London who has a house or flat that could take a big crowd, including some very wealthy ones. Dinner parties are always a bit ironic or again deliberately very informal - so again cocktail dress and heels isn't the right look, and you'd be sat down anyway so footwear seems quite irrelevant.

Agree with Hardbackwriter. A lot of so-called manners and etiquette hark back to the days where society generally was more formal. Most people under about 45 are used to socialising being a lot more laid back (paying for your own meal even if you’ve been asked out to a restaurant; wearing casual clothes to parties; bringing what you want to drink rather than the host providing everything) – plus through media, multiculturalism and urbanisation they’ve absorbed the manners and cultural norms of people from a wider range of places. Outside of MN, I don’t know anyone who gives much thought to whether they or those around them are working, middle or upper middle class (and at least half of my friends are from different countries or cultural backgrounds anyway, so don’t really know or care much about the markers of the British class system anyway.) I can’t remember the last time I went to a dinner party or had drinks in the home of somebody who would take note of whether I spooned my soup in the correct way, or be offended if I took my shoes off / would think it offensive to ask someone to.

I can’t remember the last time I went to a dinner party or had drinks in the home of somebody who would take note of whether I spooned my soup in the correct way, or be offended if I took my shoes off / would think it offensive to ask someone to.

that's the point. If they have manners, you will never know!

Everybody is open-minded, multi-cultural, laid back.. until they have children in age of getting married 😂

I think I moved in different circles when I lived in London, as I am probably a lot older than some of you. People I knew there did have real dress-up (often catered) cocktail parties (even dancing parties) at their homes sometimes, and some people had big houses with big reception rooms. This is why I found odd when there started to be this thing of having to take your shoes off, and people would really be standing about in their finery with no shoes on. I started to know where this was going to happen so made sure to wear a trouser outfit and nice socks at those parties!

I have to say, I have hung out with some "posh" people in my time (I myself am not posh) and I didn't know about the soup thing, so would have been eating it wrong all this time. I guess they were indeed polite enough not to say anything.

My DH once had occcasion to be at a work dinner function with a table full of Lords and Ladies and the like, he eats with his cutlery the "wrong" way round, and no-one said anything there either.

@neverstophopping

With the salting of food before tasting, I was brought up that if you salt before eating you don't have confidence the chef cooks correctly. (Ie the basic act of adding salt)

If you salt after testing it's not rude to the chef because it's according to personal taste how much salt you like, but you know he or she will have added to the dish by then

Yes, but in recent decades official advice has been to cook without or with less salt so I can understand that some people just know in advance that they will want extra salt.

@Sugarcrash1

I was never taught anything about making a toast or raising your glass. Someone with German connections said you have to raise your glass and look the person making the toast in the eye otherwise it’s seven years bad sex: a combination of manners and superstition. Also some people reckon you have to clink glasses with everyone or not at all. Is that good manners or just superstition?

The seven years thing is a big joke where I live on the continent too. It's for unofficial toasts between friends, not official toasts like when you make a toast for someone. Never heard of it in the UK.

I don't know about clinking with everyone. If it's a bit table, does it still apply?

"Good manners mean everybody knows what to expect, everybody is more at ease and comfortable, and people show basic respect towards each other."

No, it's the opposite isn't it because a quick read through of Debretts is not going to make someone upper class. It's a game most of us are always going to lose.

@Parkmama

What about wedding attendee etiquette? I was taught the value of your gift should be the approximate cost of your attendance . . . eg £50 - £100 a head depending on all the frivolities

You won't know the cost will you. Give what you can afford. If I'm paying for train and hotel, no way am I also giving £100 and anyone who invites me knows that in advance.

The shoes on or off thing has nothing to do with carpet or not. If you think of some of the countries where shoes off has been the norm for a long time, many of them don't have carpets.

On the subject of party footwear, I’m under 40 (albeit not much) and have really noticed in the last fifteen years that no-one really wears heels any more.

@Gwenhwyfar
I don't know about clinking with everyone. If it's a bit table, does it still apply?

The idea is it’s either everyone or nobody, so at a big table you don’t with anyone. Perhaps it’s just one person’s peculiar idea.

@Gwenhwyfar

"Good manners mean everybody knows what to expect, everybody is more at ease and comfortable, and people show basic respect towards each other."

No, it's the opposite isn't it because a quick read through of Debretts is not going to make someone upper class. It's a game most of us are always going to lose.

Manners and etiquette are not exclusive to the upper class!

Being working class has never stopped anyone from mastering good manners, being confident and comfortable. That's the point.
It's not a game, and most of it is common sense.

The worst attitude comes from people, from any class, who pretend they are too superior or "woke" to bother, they are the rude ones. People who obviously don't know.. not so much.