Manners - are there any you didn't know about until you were older?

[CheeseToastieLove]

Is there anything you didn't realise was bad manners until you were an adult. Things you weren't told when you were young? I didn't realise it was good manners to leave your alcohol at a party when you were leaving until I was in my late 20s. Always took my half full bottle home with me! Cringe. My friend was never taught it was bad manners to start eating before everyone's meals had arrived until she was in her 30s. She was always half finished before everyone had been served.

I even had one friend who gave you slippers to put on when you arrived.

It’s one thing to have your own family in socks and slippers in their own home, but I think it’s unacceptable to suggest that to guests, and it’s even worse for a guest to just take their shoes off without being requested. My elderly parents wear slippers or indoor shoes inside their house but they would never dream of suggesting that to a guest, and equally a guest would never be so rude as to take their shoes off in someone else’s home.

I absolutely agree. OK, as someone upthread mentioned, there are places/times where it is the norm to leave your shoes/boots at the door, like in Canada in the middle of winter. But what you would do if you were coming to a party/dinner would be to have your party shoes in a bag and put them on when you took off your boots.

But this batshit thing of everyone taking their shoes off in a London flat and standing in socks at a party. I think it is dying out a bit.

The friend who had slippers for guests at the door stopped doing it after a while.

I'm 33 and taking shoes off in someone else's house has always been the absolute norm and expectation for me - I agree that it's rude to ask them to take them off, but only in the same way it's rude to point out that someone is using the wrong knife, it's always rude to point out someone else isn't following social convention.

If anything I'd say I've noticed people not be as meticulous about always taking off their shoes, probably because no one has carpet downstairs anymore. It certainly isn't an invention of the last 15 years.

My grandmother told me never to brush my hair downstairs and never to brush my hair in public.
I have no idea if that was once normal (she was born 1888).

@Tulipomania

Shoes on or off and what v pardon aren't manners they are etiquette and class indicators.

'Pardon' was invented as a genteel Victorianism - by the aspirational middle classes. And the same could be said of the 'shoes off' convention in the 1980s.

No-one brought up as U would dream of doing either. We have the original stone floors in our 18th century farmhouse - asking people to take shoes off would be mad. But I don't judge others who have learned different conventions.

Personally, I think that adaptations re manners (ie the genteel Victorianism of ‘pardon’) is welcome. I’d far rather good manners than something which remains set in stone due to class.

With regards to your stone floors, you’re right - it would be mad to ask your guests to remove shoes, blooming cold and uncomfortable. But surely it’s good manners to appreciate that someone with pale carpets would prefer shoes to be removed?

I live in the countryside with lots of mud and 2 very hairy animals (and hard floors). I always tell people (friends and trades) they don’t need to take their shoes off if they look like they’re about to. If I visit someone else, I ask if I should because everyone has different circumstances at their house.

The world changes at a much faster pace these days - good manners should trump etiquette every time.

@theDudesmummy

The shoes-off thing really took off (in London at least) in a big way about fifteen years ago, and I never liked it. I do put on "indoor" shoes at home (although DH refuses to), but I always hated getting dresed up to go to a nice dinner/drinks party, complete with high heels/nice shoes which compliment your dress or whatever, and then everyone standing around in socks/stockings/bare feet. It seemed to have eased off in recent years.

TBF, I think that if if someone has a shoes off rule, then it’s good manners to make an exception for hosting something like this. But everyday visits in boots, wellies etc then I’d have no problem if someone asked me to remove them.

Theres a huge difference between a huge farmhouse with stone floors (my grandparents house is similar and wouldn't dream of taking shoes off there) and modern small boxy houses (like in our area) where shoes off is the norm.

@daisypond

I would never go into someone’s house and take my shoes off. Exposing your feet, socks to someone? Socks are a type of underwear, really. I think that’s very rude - like you’re making yourself too comfortable. It’d be like sitting with your feet up on the sofa. If you’re asked to take your shoes off, that’s a different matter - though I do think it lacks etiquette for the host to say so.

Do you not have any friends or even acquaintances from cultures where shoes on in the house isn’t just about class or etiquette but where it would be considered outright offensive? I honestly can’t imagine going to my Middle Eastern or Indian or Korean friends’ homes and waltzing in with my shoes on, or thinking they lacked grace and manners for asking me to remove them (not that they’d need to ask - I’d be considered very rude if I had to be!)

I have no problem in taking shoes off when visiting someone, especially if it is wet etc, that has always been quite normal, but the dinner or drinks party in socks seems to have been something that was all the rage for a few years and is now thankfully easing off (well, who knows what will happen, I have not been at a dinner party or drinks party for more than a year obviously!). Maybe it was just the people I knew who made everyone take off their shoes? (I also disliked it because I am very short and generally wear heels at parties! Standing in my socks with a champagne glass in hand makes me feel silly AND insignificant!).

With the salting of food before tasting, I was brought up that if you salt before eating you don't have confidence the chef cooks correctly. (Ie the basic act of adding salt)

If you salt after testing it's not rude to the chef because it's according to personal taste how much salt you like, but you know he or she will have added to the dish by then

There must be loads that I didn’t know, can’t think of anything now though.

I hate removing my shoes and never ask visitors to remove their shoes. DH does though and when we lived overseas it really shocked people.

@neverstophopping

With the salting of food before tasting, I was brought up that if you salt before eating you don't have confidence the chef cooks correctly. (Ie the basic act of adding salt)

If you salt after testing it's not rude to the chef because it's according to personal taste how much salt you like, but you know he or she will have added to the dish by then

Oh my people must have been v precious. I can’t imagine getting in a huff because someone added salt to something I cooked - does it apply to pepper, mustard, salad dressings.

All a bit silly to be live in a state of anxiety worried that we are inadvertently insulting people.

If your intentions are always kind and respectful of others then that’s enough.

Much of this rigid nonsense gets in the way of natural authentic human connection and warmth.

Well said @Sssloou.

Some people are so easily offended and look for offence in everything.

I was never taught anything about making a toast or raising your glass. Someone with German connections said you have to raise your glass and look the person making the toast in the eye otherwise it’s seven years bad sex: a combination of manners and superstition.
Also some people reckon you have to clink glasses with everyone or not at all. Is that good manners or just superstition?

@ButtercupSquash
you have to raise your glass and look the person making the toast in the eye otherwise it’s seven years bad sex.

Well that explains it!

Much of this rigid nonsense gets in the way of natural authentic human connection and warmth.

it's actually the complete opposite. Good manners mean everybody knows what to expect, everybody is more at ease and comfortable, and people show basic respect towards each other.

It's people showing a complete ignorance and worst disregard for manners and etiquette who make everyone else uncomfortable and for awkward gatherings. Even if good manners dictate that you pretend you didn't notice or it didn't bother you of course.

It's always sad when you read that someone is very uncomfortable or even anxious about going to a party, to a nice restaurant because they feel they are missing the tools. Being confident with manners only means you are comfortable anywhere and with anyone.

One of the things about shoes off that seldom gets mentioned in these discussions is that for some people, especially older people, it can be downright dangerous to move about without shoes on.

“Tulipomania
“No-one brought up as U would dream of doing either. We have the original stone floors in our 18th century farmhouse - asking people to take shoes off would be mad. But I don't judge others who have learned different conventions.“

The whole point is you have stone floors, and probably large rooms. People live in smaller and smaller houses with probably just one carpeted sitting room for the whole family and friends. The two places aren’t comparable.

It is not aspirational or a convention to want the carpet in your small house to be non- disgusting. It is being practical like the Japanese.

If you are lucky enough to have a manor house with stone and wood floors that is just so different. There is probably also a boot room or mud room at the back.

Despite living in a rural often muddy area, I cannot imagine anyone locally asking people to remove their shoes. They’d get a hoot of laughter and an assumption it was a joke, if you’d arrived for supper or coffee.
Family might take shoes off to curl up on the sofa, but otherwise shoes are generally on - unless you’ve left muddy wellies in the boot room because you’ve arrived for tea after a dog walk. You’d have thick socks on then, so not quite the same as slipping off a pair of loafers.
I don’t know any house with cream carpets at the entrance though. Carpets tend to be for bedrooms and people don’t usually go upstairs, unless staying. I think rural dwellers tend not to carpet their passageways and outer hallways to avoid the problem with mud. It wipes off flags very easily.
I suspect shoes off tends to either be non-British heritage families where it’s the norm or more modern suburban places.

Curious now. What do shoes off because of the carpet people do about wet dogs? We hose ours off after a run, if necessary, but they still bring in footprints and shaken water aplenty.

In a Georgian house in Dublin we were shown a whiskey rail. You held onto it while the maid pulled your boots off after a night on the town. It might be useful for the elderly.

What about wedding attendee etiquette? I was taught the value of your gift should be the approximate cost of your attendance . . . eg £50 - £100 a head depending on all the frivolities

@ComtesseDeSpair
Yes, I do have friends from other cultures, where it would be normal to take shoes off - I agree. But in the U.K., tradition, I don’t think it’s normal and it has a very different vibe.

Many people I know still have carpet downstairs- including me - but still wouldn’t ever expect a guest to take their shoes off.

Most of the shoes-off parties I have been at have been non-British people, but Europeans, not from Asia etc. Generally people who consider themselves pretty posh.