Is a complete lack of ‘life admin’ skills a common thing, particularly in older women?

[ElphabaTheGreen]

DFIL died recently. DMIL (70 years old) is bereft, quite understandably, because they were that rare, utterly, utterly besotted and devoted couple from the day they met until the day he died 48 years later. I used to use the fact that they even had the one email address as testament to what an inseparable, devoted couple they were (it was [email protected]).

Until it became apparent, now that DFIL has gone, that the lone email address is actually testament to how utterly, utterly devoid of life admin skills DMIL is.

She had no idea how to use the email address. She had no idea how to access their bank accounts. She hadn’t the faintest idea what their incomings/outgoings/savings were. She hadn’t the first clue how to arrange the death certificate or funeral, even when given basic, basic instructions and multiple calls from the bereavement office at the hospital. You might just as well be speaking German to her as having a basic grasp of wills, probate, or transfer of any of DFIL’s accounts to her name. All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address. She has no idea how to book her car in for an MOT, no idea how to even put screen wash in her car. My DH has been helping her with all of this, obviously, but when she asked, ‘Will I still be able to afford holidays?’ he just looked at her with slightly desperate incredulity because she wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to book one, she’s never driven further than 20 minutes from her house by herself (DFIL drove anything further) so would never know how to get to an airport or onto an aeroplane by herself, navigate a foreign country, arrange and deal with foreign currency...

DH and I thought she had managed her own father’s finances and funeral up until he died a couple of years ago but nope - DFIL did it all.

DH is gobsmacked at how lacking in basic skills she is to the point that he’s wondering if she’s even in an early stage of dementia. I don’t think she is, because she is slowly picking up on bits here and there and I think there’s light at the end of the tunnel in giving her some basic competency in running her own life. I think all of the above was just always and entirely DFIL’s responsibility in which she had zero interest so was perfectly happy leaving all the ‘hard stuff’ to him. What we’re not sure of is whether there might have been an element of DFIL realising how utterly inept DMIL was at all of it from the get go and just took over sharpish because it was easier.

What flummoxes me about this, though, is she’s the first generation of women, surely, who would have grown up with the understanding that women could and should be as self-sufficient as possible so would surely have felt some obligation to keep herself more informed and engaged, particularly in their finances? She went back to work after DH was born (their only child) so it’s not like she clung entirely to the role of 50s housewife. What’s more, she was a secondary teacher, working up until 2010 or 2011 so she would have worked well into the technological revolution. She would surely have used computers and email for work, needed to use PowerPoint, Word (DH was showing her the other day how to cut and paste in an email which was new to her...). Her main subject was home economics/food technology but I’m pretty sure her final years were spent doing relief in the one school. Looking at her now, I have a feeling she may have been one of those relief teachers who the kids were delighted to get - a period of sacking off maths because Mrs DH’sMum has no clue on the subject but instead she’d ruffle their hair and reminisce about how she taught their parents.

Before anyone suggests financial abuse on the part of DFIL - no, not the slightest chance. He was the kindest man to ever walk the earth. By contrast, if I ever needed help with childcare, it was DMIL I’d arrange it with as she was their very efficient social secretary - DFIL was scatty as fuck with anything like that. He also never ironed a shirt in his life, packed a suitcase or switched on a hoover - that was her department. So they had clearly defined roles. Nevertheless, if she’d gone first, DFIL would have managed living independently far better than it looks like she will because he knew how to function in the wider world.

Very, very long ramble to basically ask, how common is this? Is she unusually lacking in skills to manage her own life or is this an alarmingly frequent occurrence?

1 in 25 people have it. I've just been diagnosed myself and it does seem from reading a lot about it that it's often masked by having a partner (or parent for children) who steps in and just does all the stuff the person struggles with.

My grandmother was like this - but she was born in 1900, not the 1950s!!
Didn't even know how to write a cheque, had never had a bank account, just been given "housekeeping" money etc by my grandfather. When he died, her life slowly fell apart as it became apparent that she hadn't the first idea how to do lots of things! My dad made sure she was ok but she did develop dementia as well (lack of focus may have contributed)

I suppose if she was happy letting your FIL do everything like that, then there would have been no reason for your MIL to have learnt how to do any of it until now. Clearly defined stereotypical roles are less common these days but I suppose if people were brought up in an old-fashioned household and managed to continue those roles in their own marriages, then it could still persist for another generation or so, but becoming increasingly rare.

My DH would be the same. He is dyslexic and avoids admin. I do it all. But then again, I am rubbish at DIY and would struggle with all the practical house and car tasks without him.

I think that couples in long marriages can fall into roles so that one deals with a group of things, and the other a different group of things. For example, my husband retired many years before me, and as I was at work he started looking after things like banking and certain errands. It is easy to see how you can fall into these roles and have a big adjustment when you lose a partner.

I’m an older person that is possibly the focus of this thread. Of course my view is purely anecdotal and I can’t speak for other elderly women.

I’m in the fortunate position that my DH has not departed yet so have time to get to grips with things!

I did all the finances and organising of family doings for many years while bringing up the family as a stay at home parent. My DH retired at 50 and I was more than happy to turn over all admin to him. He also does lots of cooking, gardening, DIY, and cleaning. It happened gradually, it was not something that was discussed. He just had time on his hands and he is the type of person who likes to be busy!

Now we are in our late 60’s I have asked him a few times to explain where the money is and goes. He tells me, but to be quite honest, I’m not really interested in it now, and I only ask because of the obvious reason that he could drop dead tomorrow and I don’t know where the dosh is!

I have a number of children and I do see that they run their lives differently to me and my DH. When we married it was just taken that what was mine is yours. Nowadays even though people are married they seem to divide up their income and have separate private doings.

Amongst my family and friends of my generation things were definitely more joint. Yes, demarcation of roles within the home but a feeling of working together.

I will admit I have no enthusiasm to retake control of household admin, why would I ? However, I do see that if DH pops his clogs I will have to. I have asked him to write down all accounts and passwords etc.

I certainly do not want to burden my children with the task of my finances on top of their own.

What a judgmental post. She's just lost her husband, you try and function normally after that. Have some compassion.

90% of women who have it are undiagnosed
Sorry but this claim is totally fact less.

Also ADHD is not an excuse for everything.

It is a fucking nightmare of an issue which results in a waste of a life and years (until diagnosis) of being made to feel shit.

My dm is 80 and she’s a bit helpless like this. When my df passed away I did it all for her. Tbh, I don’t think my db would’ve known what to do.
I now help her with all her finances. Also, as my dm has gotten older she’s lost her confidence and ability to speak English and has reverted back to speaking her mother tongue.
My mil is 74 and is a lot more savvy than my dm. Though she does seem to be a lot fitter and healthier than my dm too. She still hasn’t retired.

You sound almost gleeful OP. You really do. There's something very distasteful about the way you keep saying "not the faintest idea!" "flummoxed!" "wide eyed!" and so on.

I'd say there are several factors at play here:
Learned helplessness,
A belief in the inferiority and incompetence of women, and corresponding superiority and competence of men,
A belief that gender roles are written in stone and based on innate competence,
Overwhelming, paralysing fear of making mistakes in an important area in which women have no competence to begin with.

Some women are very invested in traditional gender roles. But so are some men, and in my observation it takes two to create a woman so helpless, and perhaps her mother and father contributed too, in her formative years.

Don't be so sure your DFIL had nothing to do with this, and if you accept that he may have contributed to the situation, don't assume his motives were beyond reproach.

I don't think it's all that uncommon to fall into these roles in relationships. 70 is not that young to be completely out of any traditional gender roles in a marriage. I know some couples around that age who are quite similar and the man manages everything, but I know other couples that age who are completely independent and each would be perfectly able to manage.

I also know people in their 20's and 30's who are totally reliant on their partners for "life admin" things (both male and female). I guess for some people they just don't have any interest/ find it boring and if someone else is doing it for them then they are fine with that and never really learn.

I think it's life dependent.

I'm 40's and a LP to a disabled son. I've had to learn this stuff.

Chatting to a colleague the same age she has me in hysterics when she said she'd never cope as a LP - she doesn't even know what utility companies they use!

I did point out she'd learn how to do the stuff and as capable as she sees me there's also the nice side she has where she doesn't have to worry about the bills being paid as her DH sorts it all!

I just think people's circumstances can shape their futures.

She had no idea how to use the email address. She had no idea how to access their bank accounts. She hadn’t the faintest idea what their incomings/outgoings/savings were. She hadn’t the first clue how to arrange the death certificate or funeral, even when given basic, basic instructions and multiple calls from the bereavement office at the hospital. You might just as well be speaking German to her as having a basic grasp of wills, probate, or transfer of any of DFIL’s accounts to her name. All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address. She has no idea how to book her car in for an MOT, no idea how to even put screen wash in her car.

It’s grief, OP. Just grief.

It’s really unlikely that in the fullness of time your MIL won’t emerge from the fog and confusion and be more competent. But it takes time - plenty of it.

If you’re still doing probate etc then it’s recent enough that she’s right in the eye of the storm. My DF looked like he had memory issues and I was worried just after my DM died - and that was an expected death from a long-diagnosed cancer and he’s a very capable person indeed. But he struggled with banking log ins and where the money was and if you’d asked him to list his income or pension amount in the weeks following he probably couldn’t have told you to the exact figures. If my DM had died first she’d have struggled with probate forms and procedures because my DF handled probate and death duties for her mother having done his parents before that. Car MOT booking and stuff like would have stressed her out in the aftermath of grief. The email log in is not that she can’t ‘do’ email but if she’s never used it to communicate outside of a work system 10 years ago why would she be familiar with it now?

I think in this there’s a massive element of your DH being in grief too and not appreciating just how much support his mum requires and a shock that she needs looking after, putting him in a role of caring for rather than cared for- which is really hard when you’ve just lost a parent and you’re desperate for the remaining one to look competent and protective of you just like they’ve always been.

The funeral director/hospital etc - it seems logical to you from outside the deep grief and shock but it’s not so unusual to expect ‘officialdom’ to kick in. She needed more help at that point than she was given - it does read a little like your DH and you expected her to just crack on with the clear instructions without actual handholding through it. Your expectations of her have been unrealistic.

You sound worried and baffled. You do also - and I’m sure you don’t mean to - sound rather judgemental. She’s not incapable she’s grieving. The loss of her lifelong partner is just monumental.

If in 6 months to a year’s time she still doesn’t email, doesn’t book an MOT, can’t grasp basic admin then of course that’s different. But she’s always from now on going to need more support rather than less and that is an adjustment in itself for you and your DH’s relationship with her.

I’m sorry for your loss.

You sound pretty cruel to be honest. So she can't manage, she depended upon him, she's grieving and that clouds your thought processes. Even so. Why post on this thread? What answer is that going to provide that is going to be of some benefit?

What a judgmental post. She's just lost her husband, you try and function normally after that. Have some compassion

I've been trying to work out why this whole thread makes me feel so uncomfortable and I think this is it. You said she's been married nearly 50 years?! Have you any comprehension of how how gut-wretchingly difficult that will be for her, she is probably currently on an entire other planet and will be for quite some time.
You say you 'love her to bits' but the original post is cold.

But really it was not that long ago that you needed your husbsmds signature on things. In the 1980s my father had to 'introduce' me to the bank so I could get an account, and I was in my 20s.

I opened my first bank account in 1985.
I just went and did it- no male required.

Lots at play here I would guess.
There are so many things coming at her all at once she is simply overwhelmed.
My DH would be like your MiL if I died. He does his own banking, but apart from that would struggle, because his initial reaction is 'I dont know how to do it, you do it'. Multiply that by the number of things to do when someone dies, and you can see why they struggle.
I am getting harder as i get older, and am now refusing to do things for him and he is managing, after a lot of hand wringing, whinging and whining to do individual admin tasks, but would still just shut down were he to be asked to deal with several things at the same time.
Try giving her single specific tasks. When she has figured those out, move on to the next one. She WILL get there, just give her time and support.

And you dont sound horrible at all - I would be incredulous too if I didnt live with it 😊

My Grandmother is 92. Widowed for 20 years. The first couple of years were definitely hard due to the different roles she and my GF had and some things she had to learn how to do or figure out (with help from us) but she is a very capable person and quickly adapted to living alone and has successfully kept up with technology and now still manages all aspects of her life on her own in her 90s. Give your MIL a break, it's all new. In a year you'll find she's perfectly capable of doing most things just as anyone else in their 70s can.

Not common but not uncommon I’d say. Used to work with a lady who lost her husband in her early sixties. He did all that side of things for them. She was a bit lost.

She was a PA at work though, so I suspect the reason he did it was to give her a break at home- as in ached that doesn’t cook.

She did get there with the support of her kids and her own work skills.

But it took a while because:

1. She had the skills but didn’t know the actual terrain (I.e. who the bills were with etc).
2. Every time she had to do something like that, it reminded her she had lost him and her emotional reaction to that was to be lost.

I suspect reason 2. was really the stumbling block. It was just so hard to have that feeling of him not being there anymore.

• as in a chef that doesn’t cook at home

I actually think she has complete command of the greatest life admin skill of all...

Delegation.

I think you’re wrong. My DM is just widowed at 84, she isn’t tech savvy but she can use a landline and speak to someone in the bank. She checks her (paper) bank statements religiously and has just organised a plumber, decorator and gardener.

I however sorted the death, and estate, I was an executor, it made sense as I was more detached from the grief and more tech savvy.

Her sister is 90 and been a widow for many years, she orders her shopping on line and FaceTimes her family as well as doing her own admin. She worked at Girobank for many years.

I think it boils down to what was done in a relationship during marriage. I know two much younger women who divorced in their forties and were completely out of their depth because they hadn’t ever called the the gas company.

I would second the posters who have mentioned how big a role grief might be playing in this situation. I'm not even 40 yet, totally au fait with all tech, involved in all life admin to some extent, but exh was the one who had organised the recent set of insurances etc when we moved house as I had 2 young children. A business and a severely depressed husband who found comfort in routine computer tasks and was completely overwhelmed by family life. When he left I was destroyed and grief-struck. I picked myself up, got a new job, threw myself at the life admin I needed to but some of it just overwhelmed me utterly because it was either so unfamiliar, or it hit a trigger or I was terrified of the ramifications of doing it wrong or all the above. Gradually I got on top of it, but I was horrified by how helpless and useless I felt. I can only extrapolate how much more so that would have been when losing a life partner who had done even more for me, over a longer period of time and the more painful grieving you do through death than divorce.

Keep doing what you're doing, I think the chances are good she'll pull through and get some control but it's just all too much right now.

My two grandmothers who have been dead for 20 years, were too old to be interested regarding the internet and email, but were familiar with other life admin tasks, with the exception of DIY type jobs, but they would have been too old to do them at the point they were widowed... all my grandparents died in their 90s.

I do think it’s down to individual people / couples rather than a generation thing.

I would say my MIL is exactly the same, but it’s just how they work as a couple. FIL has already told us he has a book with everything written in for us / DH sister when he goes as MIL wouldn't have a clue. I don’t think she has a clue just how much money they are sat on (neither to we to be fair, but from comments FIL has made they are very very comfortable), yet MIL questions buying £10 work shoes or whether hers can last a bit longer or if she can get them cheaper.

My mum isn’t very computer literate and much prefers all the old fashion bills, paper bank statements etc, would ask me to book any holidays online etc but is fine with paying her bills, finances etc but she divorced my father when I was 11 so no idea if she learnt at that point or was always involved. She’s since remarried but they do it all jointly.