Is a complete lack of ‘life admin’ skills a common thing, particularly in older women?

[ElphabaTheGreen]

DFIL died recently. DMIL (70 years old) is bereft, quite understandably, because they were that rare, utterly, utterly besotted and devoted couple from the day they met until the day he died 48 years later. I used to use the fact that they even had the one email address as testament to what an inseparable, devoted couple they were (it was [email protected]).

Until it became apparent, now that DFIL has gone, that the lone email address is actually testament to how utterly, utterly devoid of life admin skills DMIL is.

She had no idea how to use the email address. She had no idea how to access their bank accounts. She hadn’t the faintest idea what their incomings/outgoings/savings were. She hadn’t the first clue how to arrange the death certificate or funeral, even when given basic, basic instructions and multiple calls from the bereavement office at the hospital. You might just as well be speaking German to her as having a basic grasp of wills, probate, or transfer of any of DFIL’s accounts to her name. All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address. She has no idea how to book her car in for an MOT, no idea how to even put screen wash in her car. My DH has been helping her with all of this, obviously, but when she asked, ‘Will I still be able to afford holidays?’ he just looked at her with slightly desperate incredulity because she wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to book one, she’s never driven further than 20 minutes from her house by herself (DFIL drove anything further) so would never know how to get to an airport or onto an aeroplane by herself, navigate a foreign country, arrange and deal with foreign currency...

DH and I thought she had managed her own father’s finances and funeral up until he died a couple of years ago but nope - DFIL did it all.

DH is gobsmacked at how lacking in basic skills she is to the point that he’s wondering if she’s even in an early stage of dementia. I don’t think she is, because she is slowly picking up on bits here and there and I think there’s light at the end of the tunnel in giving her some basic competency in running her own life. I think all of the above was just always and entirely DFIL’s responsibility in which she had zero interest so was perfectly happy leaving all the ‘hard stuff’ to him. What we’re not sure of is whether there might have been an element of DFIL realising how utterly inept DMIL was at all of it from the get go and just took over sharpish because it was easier.

What flummoxes me about this, though, is she’s the first generation of women, surely, who would have grown up with the understanding that women could and should be as self-sufficient as possible so would surely have felt some obligation to keep herself more informed and engaged, particularly in their finances? She went back to work after DH was born (their only child) so it’s not like she clung entirely to the role of 50s housewife. What’s more, she was a secondary teacher, working up until 2010 or 2011 so she would have worked well into the technological revolution. She would surely have used computers and email for work, needed to use PowerPoint, Word (DH was showing her the other day how to cut and paste in an email which was new to her...). Her main subject was home economics/food technology but I’m pretty sure her final years were spent doing relief in the one school. Looking at her now, I have a feeling she may have been one of those relief teachers who the kids were delighted to get - a period of sacking off maths because Mrs DH’sMum has no clue on the subject but instead she’d ruffle their hair and reminisce about how she taught their parents.

Before anyone suggests financial abuse on the part of DFIL - no, not the slightest chance. He was the kindest man to ever walk the earth. By contrast, if I ever needed help with childcare, it was DMIL I’d arrange it with as she was their very efficient social secretary - DFIL was scatty as fuck with anything like that. He also never ironed a shirt in his life, packed a suitcase or switched on a hoover - that was her department. So they had clearly defined roles. Nevertheless, if she’d gone first, DFIL would have managed living independently far better than it looks like she will because he knew how to function in the wider world.

Very, very long ramble to basically ask, how common is this? Is she unusually lacking in skills to manage her own life or is this an alarmingly frequent occurrence?

Some comments here are a bit odd. I am 74 and have had a bank account since I was 18, before my parents ever had one. I do all the life admin for myself and husband of 50 years as he has no interest , or is a bit lazy? I do worry whether he could cope on his own. All partnerships fall into their own pattern where we each play to our strengths. Your MIL will manage if she has help but needs time to get used to doing things. She is still grieving as well.

I don't think it's an age thing. I have a friend, a little younger than me, in her 40s. I can't email her anything sensitive because she has a joint email address with her husband. It's not uselessness. Her dd made her a Facebook account and he made her delete it. She's in an awful marriage and her confidence is in the gutter.

Not from experience in my family. I'm lucky to have 3 grandparents still living, 2 Grandmas and a Granddad.

My 90-year-old Grandma on my Dad's side is sharp as a button- she has an iPhone 11, a MacBook and an iPad. She can use email and Whatsapp and has done online shopping, grocery shops and banking since they became things. She does all their finances and has a handle on everything. If anything, my Granddad is less skilled at the life and tech stuff. She stopped working when she had kids in the 60's too, so it's not like she ever had to use any of this technology.

My 85-year-old Grandma on my Mum's side is less techy, but she has Facebook account that she uses with her iPad. She's good at video calls and even posts stories. She is widowed, but definitely was the one in their relationship who handled finances.

I am late 50s and can honestly say that I am well educated ...have absolutely no idea about using the computer apart from FB ,banking and google. I have absolutely no interest, and my husband sorts out bills.!!
Maybe try and be more tolerant! I I bet she has other skills that you could only wish for 🤔

@pallisers

OP, your MIL has suffered a profound loss - a really dramatic shift in her life. The absolute love of her life has gone forever. It is an extraordinary shift in her reality.

Give her some time. She can't possibly be up to speed on everything right now - she is in deep grief. She will come out of it a bit eventually and will be able to email and manage her own affairs.

I’m confident she will be (more confident than DH is as I said in one of my earlier posts) and we are 150% giving her a lot of time and space to slowly acquire these new skills, or just leave them until she’s in a better place, not expecting her to pick them up tomorrow. It was more surprise that, in addition to the lack of skills, she didn’t even have a rough idea of basic stuff like income. Her own occupational pension was in their mix of monthly incomings - she had forgotten about it and hadn’t the faintest idea how much it was.

If mil dies first, my fil will have no idea how to wash his clothing, run the dishwasher, make himself a meal other than one kind of sandwich that he makes himself for lunch every day. They have divided the labor in such a way that he is completely incapable of caring for himself. Mil has made sure that the division of labor has not included the finances and she knows she can hire people to do the chores the fil currently covers because they aren’t as time sensitive and as essential to daily existence. So it goes both ways.

My mother knew she was dying. She actually spent the time she had left teaching my father to take care of himself.

My parents are about this age and my mum could definitely handle all of that (she might not know how to copy and paste on an email though 🤦‍♀️ - poor IT skills unless directly relevant to her work, she sends emails but would just copy it all out again rather than attempt to copy and paste I suspect 😂- but can make v professional PowerPoint presentations etc, just a knowledge gap she hasn’t bothered to fill) but she worked all her life at a professional job. I think some of my parents friends have the kind of set up where I could see this scenario developing but usually if the woman hasn’t worked outside the home at all or not since very young pre-children. In my social circle (white British middle class) financial stuff is generally seen as a “man job” so often the woman has simply never been that interested or had to be involved with any of it. I do think they could all pick it up ok though but for sure grief would interfere! Probate etc is quite complicated and Imm not sure I could do that, although I guess I’d know how to find out/who to ask for help etc. I’d sort it out but it wouldn’t be straightforward to me!

The not being able to book the car for an MOT etc. is a bit odder though I think. Especially for someone who worked as a teacher... Is that perhaps just at the moment as she’s feeling overwhelmed by grief and not up to talking to people on the phone as doesn’t want to cry on the phone when booking the MOT appt etc and just finds it easier to ask you to help? A preferring not to deal with it rather than a true inability to deal with it maybe? If she geneuibely has no clue how to even go about doing this and you don’t think it’s just acutely due to grief I’d definitely ask for a memory assessment. I would say that sometimes early dementia etc can be masked from even close relatives until a partner dies and it becomes apparent just how much they were doing for the other person.

@dottiedaisee

I am late 50s and can honestly say that I am well educated ...have absolutely no idea about using the computer apart from FB ,banking and google. I have absolutely no interest, and my husband sorts out bills.!! Maybe try and be more tolerant! I I bet she has other skills that you could only wish for 🤔

We are very tolerant. I don’t know why you think we might not be.

Genuinely - if your husband (God forbid, assuming you like him ) were to drop dead tomorrow, would you be able to take over his ‘roles’? If no, does this concern you at all? Absolutely not having a go - just interested in thought processes of someone who has delineated jobs in the partnership. You say you can access banking, which is huge and far more than DMIL could...

Sorry you're getting such a tough time OP. Sadly there are couples who are very codependent and who divide up tasks in a way that each is utterly reliant on one another.

My stepmother was like this. She shopped and entertained and was very beautiful but all the boring admin of life and anything related to the house or finances was left to my dad. In a way she was treated almost like a child and shielded from so much of 'adulting.' I saw a lot of that in her friends and peers. In a way I think she saw it as a luxury not having to bother or get her 'hands dirty' and so was something you got to do as a lady of leisure - think about leisure and nowt else.

Unfortunately it means she is not very worldly and as she got older she became more and more childlike.

MIL has been divorced for decades and is in her 80s but still in control of her world.
DM is late 70s and is joint named on all the bills etc. She does DF's tax return.
Both might need some IT support but they're both sensible women :)

Elphaba, my dh is the high earner right now. If I dropped tomorrow he would have no clue how our finances, our bills, our investments and our taxes worked (also how to deal with cleaners/how to cook/how to chivy our young adult children along the way I do. But he would learn. it probably wouldn't be right away. it would take a while. I wouldn't think this is a complete lack of life admin for older men

So on your original post - no it isn't a thing. It isn't even a thing for your mil. she is grieving so she will need support right now. But she is an intelligent 70 year old so she won't need your support forever. She will manage.

OP., you are probably already dividing out responsibilites with your dh because your life works better that way. It isn't that you can't do one thing or he can't do the other it is just it works better. If in 40 years times it takes a while for you to take over the ones he did while also dealing with your grief ... well hardly surprising is it.

With regard to my marriage and bills, it's split. We both have the password to each others email should we need it for bills. We have friends who have died suddenly.

My DM in her 80s is very similar. They have very defined traditional roles and jobs within the house and have been happily married for 61 years. DF worked within a financial sector and by default sorted all their finances out. We have tried to encourage her to be a bit more aware of her finances, bills and so on.. just in case, but she is reluctant to ‘tread on his toes’.

The not being able to book the car for an MOT etc. is a bit odder though I think. Especially for someone who worked as a teacher... Is that perhaps just at the moment as she’s feeling overwhelmed by grief and not up to talking to people on the phone as doesn’t want to cry on the phone when booking the MOT appt etc and just finds it easier to ask you to help? A preferring not to deal with it rather than a true inability to deal with it maybe? If she geneuibely has no clue how to even go about doing this and you don’t think it’s just acutely due to grief I’d definitely ask for a memory assessment. I would say that sometimes early dementia etc can be masked from even close relatives until a partner dies and it becomes apparent just how much they were doing for the other person.

I’m an OT so memory assessments are very much part of my job This is why I’m leaning more towards grief with eventual independence at the moment, while I think DH is catastrophising - understandable as he’s just lost his beloved dad and had to take over his mum’s life.

Not completely ruling out something pathological though, TBH, and DH and I had some niggling concerns about DFIL’s memory, to the point that we’d raised them to DMIL about 18 months ago, but she very much stuck her head in the sand. DFIL’s father died of dementia in his early 70s. DH and I have had one conversation where we wondered if there might be some co-dependency/masking going on, or if their rigidly defined roles just kept them incapable and unable to think flexibly outside of their respective ‘departments’.

MiL was widowed 14 years ago. She's 84 now. She was also a Deputy Head Teacher.

She will not open the post, sort out tradesmen or chose a new TV alone. If she has to use the phone DH gives her a script but it is under duress.

DH visits monthly to deal with the admin. She will not use a mobile phone or computer. Sadly in the last year he has had to arrange carers and he now has power of attorney.

Notwithstanding the recent dementia, she just wouldn't do it. Making phone calls has been a significant issue and she has always been a little quaint.

@ElphabaTheGreen..as an OT you must regularly have contact with couples who have different strengths within their relationships. Am not sure why you think I do not like my husband...odd comment.

I think it's common for older couples to have a stark division of labour especially apparent because they've have 40+ years to specialise in some tasks and lose familiarity with others but it's not just older people who will be thrown for a loop if their support system is suddenly yanked away.

Even as a 40-something, there are many things my husband does for us that I wouldn't know how to do without research or guidance, and judging by how often DH has to ask me where something is in our home or how to do this or that, he'd be discombobulated if I were to suddenly disappear.

Why was she put in the position of having to get a death certificate ? I can't believe your H didn't do this for her ? She is grieving and her whole future has blown up in front of her . It's not difficult to help with probate etc and the rest she will get a grasp of in time . She isn't that elderly to be fair but she has been in a long marriage .

[quote dottiedaisee]@ElphabaTheGreen..as an OT you must regularly have contact with couples who have different strengths within their relationships. Am not sure why you think I do not like my husband...odd comment.[/quote]
It was a joke dottie - hence the wink...

Yes, I do come across couples with split duties all the time and see co-dependencies all the time - one is often ‘the brains’ (physically incapacitated, mentally sharp) and the other is often ‘the legs’ (vice versa). And I always wonder, ‘What on earth are you going to do when your other half goes?’ But life admin doesn’t fall within my remit in my field (it does for other OTs, but not me) so I never find out what happens when the worst does occur, nor need to give advice on it. As this thread indicates, either family help them to eventually cope, they never cope and family tear their hair out or... what? Paid carers won’t touch finances - my MIL would never qualify for carers anyway as she’s functionally independent at looking after herself. Would Citizen’s Advice Bureau help? Would she have to take herself off individually to solicitors, financial advisors...she wouldn’t even know how/where to start even getting help like that. Without DH intervening for her, DFIL would probably still be in the hospital morgue. She honestly told the hospital the name of the funeral director she wanted to use (didn’t even give them the address) and thought that was it. It was three days before DH realised she hadn’t made an appointment with the funeral home because she thought the hospital was going to sort it all for her, or followed the instructions she’d been given on the phone and in writing to obtain death certificates. She interpreted all the information she’d been given as ‘the hospital will post one to me’.

I think its down to personality rather than age. My dad died when he and DM were both in their 50s and although they both had 'their' roles my mum really threw herself into learning how to do everything herself and is fiercely independent about it. Not just life admin, DIY, the lot. She hates asking her kids or siblings for help and would rather struggle alone.

MIL on the other hand, in her 60s, divorced and living alone since her early 40s, still expects her kids to do pretty much everything FIL used to do, and wouldn't dream of giving it a bash herself.

Both stances are often equally as irritating!

Not saying its the case with your MIL but with mine there's definitely an element of control. Your family knowing you can't function alone certainly keeps them on a shorter leash. Its a funny way to live.

I’m very surprised you’ve ruled out dementia so easily. If your MIL was working as a teacher until 10 years ago then she must have had a basic grasp of emails. Plus to qualify as a teacher she must have been able to follow and retain instructions.

There’s no way a person completely incompetent at life skills was a full time teacher in the relatively recent past.

Before anyone suggests financial abuse on the part of DFIL - no, not the slightest chance. He was the kindest man to ever walk the earth

The fact he was outwardly kind absolutely does not guarantee there was no financial abuse.

@MrsMaizel

Why was she put in the position of having to get a death certificate ? I can't believe your H didn't do this for her ? She is grieving and her whole future has blown up in front of her . It's not difficult to help with probate etc and the rest she will get a grasp of in time . She isn't that elderly to be fair but she has been in a long marriage .

She wasn’t. DH did absolutely everything for her. She’d told him she’d sorted the death certificate until he established quite quickly that she hadn’t so be took over the whole process immediately.

And we are doing everything for her, as I’ve said. DH sat with her for three hours at the weekend working out probate for her. While also gently starting to put things in place to help her to be more independent.

Dm is 74 and is an admin/life skills queen - good job as DF was at work 24/7. They have never had a joint bank account, never mind email address. They are both reasonably tech savvy - use smartphones and lots of apps, although DM is probably better than DF - they occasionally get v overexcited about basic things they've just discovered- I still remember DF "dadsplaining" WhatsApp to me . He has now "encouraged" his badminton team to adopt WhatsApp chats instead of endless phonecalls to arrange matches.

I think they would both be administratively ok without the other although in the immediate aftermath might need a bit of help with things that the other one did more of.

With tradespeople, as they've got older they've got a bit more stressed about it but I think that's because they think the tradesperson might rip them off because they see old people as an easy touch. Therefore they spend a lot of energy pretty much diagnosing the problem themselves before they will call someone.

Thank you for being kind and patient with her OP. Your presence and help with the admin is a lifesaver for her now and an education for when she can handle it herself.