Is a complete lack of ‘life admin’ skills a common thing, particularly in older women?

[ElphabaTheGreen]

DFIL died recently. DMIL (70 years old) is bereft, quite understandably, because they were that rare, utterly, utterly besotted and devoted couple from the day they met until the day he died 48 years later. I used to use the fact that they even had the one email address as testament to what an inseparable, devoted couple they were (it was [email protected]).

Until it became apparent, now that DFIL has gone, that the lone email address is actually testament to how utterly, utterly devoid of life admin skills DMIL is.

She had no idea how to use the email address. She had no idea how to access their bank accounts. She hadn’t the faintest idea what their incomings/outgoings/savings were. She hadn’t the first clue how to arrange the death certificate or funeral, even when given basic, basic instructions and multiple calls from the bereavement office at the hospital. You might just as well be speaking German to her as having a basic grasp of wills, probate, or transfer of any of DFIL’s accounts to her name. All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address. She has no idea how to book her car in for an MOT, no idea how to even put screen wash in her car. My DH has been helping her with all of this, obviously, but when she asked, ‘Will I still be able to afford holidays?’ he just looked at her with slightly desperate incredulity because she wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to book one, she’s never driven further than 20 minutes from her house by herself (DFIL drove anything further) so would never know how to get to an airport or onto an aeroplane by herself, navigate a foreign country, arrange and deal with foreign currency...

DH and I thought she had managed her own father’s finances and funeral up until he died a couple of years ago but nope - DFIL did it all.

DH is gobsmacked at how lacking in basic skills she is to the point that he’s wondering if she’s even in an early stage of dementia. I don’t think she is, because she is slowly picking up on bits here and there and I think there’s light at the end of the tunnel in giving her some basic competency in running her own life. I think all of the above was just always and entirely DFIL’s responsibility in which she had zero interest so was perfectly happy leaving all the ‘hard stuff’ to him. What we’re not sure of is whether there might have been an element of DFIL realising how utterly inept DMIL was at all of it from the get go and just took over sharpish because it was easier.

What flummoxes me about this, though, is she’s the first generation of women, surely, who would have grown up with the understanding that women could and should be as self-sufficient as possible so would surely have felt some obligation to keep herself more informed and engaged, particularly in their finances? She went back to work after DH was born (their only child) so it’s not like she clung entirely to the role of 50s housewife. What’s more, she was a secondary teacher, working up until 2010 or 2011 so she would have worked well into the technological revolution. She would surely have used computers and email for work, needed to use PowerPoint, Word (DH was showing her the other day how to cut and paste in an email which was new to her...). Her main subject was home economics/food technology but I’m pretty sure her final years were spent doing relief in the one school. Looking at her now, I have a feeling she may have been one of those relief teachers who the kids were delighted to get - a period of sacking off maths because Mrs DH’sMum has no clue on the subject but instead she’d ruffle their hair and reminisce about how she taught their parents.

Before anyone suggests financial abuse on the part of DFIL - no, not the slightest chance. He was the kindest man to ever walk the earth. By contrast, if I ever needed help with childcare, it was DMIL I’d arrange it with as she was their very efficient social secretary - DFIL was scatty as fuck with anything like that. He also never ironed a shirt in his life, packed a suitcase or switched on a hoover - that was her department. So they had clearly defined roles. Nevertheless, if she’d gone first, DFIL would have managed living independently far better than it looks like she will because he knew how to function in the wider world.

Very, very long ramble to basically ask, how common is this? Is she unusually lacking in skills to manage her own life or is this an alarmingly frequent occurrence?

When my paternal grandfather died my grandmother didn't even know who they banked with, they were utterly devoted to each other not a hint of abuse she just didn't see that as her role, she'd be in her nineties if she were still alive. She did however manner the entire household including 8 children with absolute pristine efficiency, so not a lack of capability.
By contrast when my maternal grandpa died my gran was more than capable of dealing with everything, most of the bills etc were already in her name as he'd been in ill health for a while, she's eighty but has a laptop and a smart phone, she can facetime, WhatsApp and Facebook, uses comparison sites for insurances, zoom choir rehearsals, Google map planning for her walking group etc. She told me in the early nineties computers would never take off (😁) but when she realised they had and retired she booked herself onto an evening class and set about learning. She's an incredible woman.

I think it's just the way their roles fell, so she never learned. I had to teach DH how cheques work, he had no idea. He didn't have a bank account when we met (had briefly had one and a credit card and loans in his early twenties and got into debt) and I had full control of our finances from early on due to drugs issues. Totally sorted now, but we'd already fallen into me being in charge of everything, so I still am. I like being in charge of the finances, but it does worry me that he'd struggle without me.

I've had to teach him things like email (only ever had manual jobs and only used the Internet for ebay and videos) and how to work Internet banking and stuff. He still isn't involved in bill paying and has no idea who our providers are for anything, so I've got a way to go...

NDN are the opposite, she doesn't know what he earns, what providers the bills are with etc (they have seperate finances). Though she's more than capable, having been a single mother before they met and she runs other parts of the household and arranges holidays etc.
It's easy to fall into roles, I think.

DM was like that to some extent when she was widowed in her 50s (now 80s). DF was fairly secretive about some things which didn't help, but a lot of things like paying bills were Man Jobs, and were A Big Thing to learn to do. Grief didn't help but she is reluctant to change too and has deliberately resisted any technology developments. The introduction of direct debits helped a bit as it was in the fading days of having to go to the bank. I remember another family member coming over to guide her through it.

My friend is concerned about his DM's level of dependence. The DF has early alzheimers and they live up the back end of nowhere which is awkward when she can't drive. From comments made, they tend to have quite a rigid Man/ Woman Jobs attitude.

I'd say it's probably unusual these days. 70 is not that old.

I think it's also often the woman who handles a lot of stuff? And so I'm sure it happens the other way around.

People are individuals and relationships are all different. It's not the time now to pick apart her admin skills.

Gosh, I'm much much younger, but I wouldn't understand probate, etc either. On account of never having done it. I suspect being grief stricken is a de-motivating factor too.

I'm inclined to think bereavement has more of an impact than you think, making decisions, retaining information, wanting to deal with things, are all things that can feel monumentally harder when compounded with grief, as they signify moving forward without that person into an unknown.

My mum was 73 when my dad died after 48 years of marriage. She had complete control of their finances and has had no issues dealing with life admin. All of her widowed friends seem to manage absolutely fine as well, as did both of my grandmothers.

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius

It doesn’t sound like financial abuse on the part of your FIL, *@ElphabaTheGreen* - quite the opposite. It sounds like he cared for her so well she never needed to learn how to do these things. If this is the case, I can understand why she is struggling so much at the moment - not only has she lost her soulmate, but she has been pitchforked into a complex and difficult situation where she is facing a mountain of different things to do, to organise, to understand.

Had she had to do one of these jobs on its own, without the upset of bereavement, she may well have grasped things better than she did - but she had so much to cope with all at once, and it was too much for her.

I do agree with all of that, especially the first part. But the first part makes me wonder why, even more, that DFIL didn’t think, ‘Hang on - if I fall off my perch, how on earth will DW cope?’ and nudge/encourage her to take on more for herself. Unless he tried and she resisted...

They never had conversations about what his wishes might be in the event of serious illness or how he’d want to be buried. We honestly think they’d just expected to fall asleep holding hands together in their shared nursing home when they were in their late 90s

I honestly don't know where to start with your post OP. Surely you must see how offensive and unreasonable it is to generalise to all older women on the basis of your perception of your MIL?
We're not all one homogeneous blob you know.

And your post comes across as patronising and critical. It certainly doesn't convey that you "love her to bits". The poor woman is bereaved and adjusting to being single.....give her a chance ffs!

While I'm sure there are a number of women like that, in my experience it was the woman half that did all the life administration. My mother (who would be 96 if still alive) paid all the bills, took care of getting cars taxed and serviced, and dealt wilh tradesmen.

This was DFIL’s mother, definitely. She held out her hand for the pay packet from her coal miner DH and sorted all the finances and bills, so it’s not like DFIL would have grown up with the belief this was ‘men’s work’.

My grandmother was in her late fifties when my grandfather died. She didn't know what to do as my grandfather had done everything. But she learned and kept things in good order until she had a stroke.

On the other hand, my mum recently passed away and my dad who's 70 has no idea how to do anything as my mum did it all. I've now had to take over and I'm getting POA to make sure I can keep it all under control if he becomes unable (!).

Sorry for your loss. Not sure why you're getting such a hard time with some replies.

My mum is similar and it drives me mad. She's only 65, is a retired scientist, totally computer literate. And yet she becomes incapable with many basic life admin skills - can't fathom changing energy suppliers or doing a price comparison, can't do a phone software update, can barely do online shopping. I'm fairly certain it's attention seeking helplessness although I've no idea why.

Some of your DMILs struggles do sound incredibly extreme and perhaps are a reaction to grief? It's quite hard to reconcile some of those examples with a woman who worked in a professional role.

Yep, I am going through the same thing with my DM, she used to work and used a computer regularly (I have old emails from her) but she took early retirement moved in with my stepdad and he did everything, then he died so it’s now become my job to parent my parent. She cannot do any admin, make admin phone calls and says she doesn’t understand emails. She does have memory problems, I seriously suspect dementia, but I think there is an element of learned helplessness too. She gave up work too young and has retreated from any kind of challenge, letting her husband do everything and becoming child like, and hasn’t really come out of that. Over the last few years I have exhausted myself looking after her for not much appreciation and on some occasion, verbal abuse and false accusations. I know from some of the responses on here I will probably get called uncaring too, obviously if I was I would have skipped the country long ago! OP the Elderly Parents thread is a good place to go fo support, they understand this is not easy.

I work with a late 50s woman who has no idea how much money her husband has or where it is stored. She doesn't pay any bills or know anything about any insurances. If her dh dropped dead tomorrow she would be in real trouble.

Another colleague in very early 50s lost a partner and had to get her daughter to sort everything. She is absolutely clueless.

My 70yr old mother is totally clued up on everything and made sure we were as well.

I think it is more about the type of marriage you have rather than an age thing. Also some things you never learn till you have to.

This scenerio is fairly common around here. (rural,white, working class, traditional gender roles)

My MIL really struggles. She is very much against doing anything online and will take a lengthy trip to see someone in person to get help rather than do it herself. She spends a lot of time in the bank, they are very kind to her. I can kind of understand why branches are closing (although it’s sad) because it must cost them so much to have to deal with certain customers. I don’t mind helping her, but it can be frustrating having to do her stuff as well as ours. It’s easy to fall in the trap of just doing stuff for her rather than teaching her. She thinks it’s easy for us and it is, but we are doing life admin alongside working and looking after the children and I wonder if she just chipped away at it then she would get stuff done herself rather than relying on us. This reminds me to try to keep on top of what is expected of me and do things as a team with DH so that we both could pick up a task in the other one’s absence.

I honestly don't know where to start with your post OP. Surely you must see how offensive and unreasonable it is to generalise to all older women on the basis of your perception of your MIL?
We're not all one homogeneous blob you know.

Well, I had actually generalised all older women into the category of being largely self-sufficient and completely independent. And was wondering if my expectations were actually too high. But this is Mumsnet, so you carry on and misinterpret to your own ends to your heart’s content.

And your post comes across as patronising and critical. It certainly doesn't convey that you "love her to bits". The poor woman is bereaved and adjusting to being single.....give her a chance ffs!

Because I bet you’ve never once in your life had an even slightly critical thought - which you have kept completely to yourself or entirely anonymous - about someone you care about. Have a

I'm a bit like this tbh OP and don't have old age as an excuse!
I used to be very independent but after we had kids I've picked up the slack on childcare and cleaning etc so I feel no need to do life/house admin too when my DH is happy to do it. I hate doing that kind of thing. Hopefully I'll remember what to do if I ever need to!

My mum is 77, dad is 79, they will have been married 60 years this year, obviously since they were very young. Both parents are perfectly able to function without the other, mum can deal with the finances and dad can cook and clean.

My mum is like this with finances and admin - she leaves it entirely to DF and he also ran her mother's admin.

Thing is DF being DF, he'll have written her a bullet point, indexed manual among the impeccably organised paperwork because that's the sort of thing he does (my brother and I get emailed a detailed itinerary every time they go away for more than a couple of days "just in case"),

DM is perfectly capable though, they just divide tasks based on their strengths and preferences.

@ElphabaTheGreen

*I honestly don't know where to start with your post OP. Surely you must see how offensive and unreasonable it is to generalise to all older women on the basis of your perception of your MIL? We're not all one homogeneous blob you know.*

Well, I had actually generalised all older women into the category of being largely self-sufficient and completely independent. And was wondering if my expectations were actually too high. But this is Mumsnet, so you carry on and misinterpret to your own ends to your heart’s content.

And your post comes across as patronising and critical. It certainly doesn't convey that you "love her to bits". The poor woman is bereaved and adjusting to being single.....give her a chance ffs!

Because I bet you’ve never once in your life had an even slightly critical thought - which you have kept completely to yourself or entirely anonymous - about someone you care about. Have a

Older women are neither largely independent nor largely incompetent.......anymore than anyone else is.....a positive generalisation is just as meaningless as a negative one And thanks for the star....much appreciated and accepted in the spirit in which it was given

On the other hand, my mum recently passed away and my dad who's 70 has no idea how to do anything as my mum did it all. I've now had to take over and I'm getting POA to make sure I can keep it all under control if he becomes unable (!).

Yep - we got LPAs done so quick for all three of us (me, DH, DMIL) when DFIL became critically ill, because he never had one and there were some scary weeks where he was still alive, had a chance of life long incapacity and MIL with no direct access to their finances. If she’d needed to claim on insurance or renew any policies while he was still alive we would have to have gone through the court of protection.

I have become a broken record player to anyone I meet - get LPAs done no matter how young and fit you might be!

OP, your MIL has suffered a profound loss - a really dramatic shift in her life. The absolute love of her life has gone forever. It is an extraordinary shift in her reality.

Give her some time. She can't possibly be up to speed on everything right now - she is in deep grief. She will come out of it a bit eventually and will be able to email and manage her own affairs.

I don't think it's an age thing more of a what type of relationship you have with your spouse. My dh tends to deal with car stuff (like putting screen wash in ) I wouldn't have the foggiest but the difference is that I would be able to do it, I'd just google it like everything else 😂.

I lived on my own until I was 33 and did all right so in my case it's just we have defined roles, nothing to do with capability.

I think in your mil's case you have to slowly let her get on with it. She's not ancient. Try not to make a rod for your own back. I'm not saying don't help her but show her what to do....baby steps and all that. She'll get there, it's early days. My mum lost my dad ten years ago and she's 75 now and does everything. She's extremely self sufficient. The only thing she doesn't do is drive but I'm happy to ferry her about or she gets the bus.

When my grandmother died, we realised my grandfather (then in his 70s, now 89) couldn't cook or operate the washing machine, and hadn't been to the supermarket in over a decade.

I expect if he'd gone first, my grandmother would have had similar struggles to your DMIL.

I expect it's not that unusual for people to lack certain skills if chores have been split the same way for decades, although probably less common in 70 year olds than people older than that.