Is a complete lack of ‘life admin’ skills a common thing, particularly in older women?

[ElphabaTheGreen]

DFIL died recently. DMIL (70 years old) is bereft, quite understandably, because they were that rare, utterly, utterly besotted and devoted couple from the day they met until the day he died 48 years later. I used to use the fact that they even had the one email address as testament to what an inseparable, devoted couple they were (it was [email protected]).

Until it became apparent, now that DFIL has gone, that the lone email address is actually testament to how utterly, utterly devoid of life admin skills DMIL is.

She had no idea how to use the email address. She had no idea how to access their bank accounts. She hadn’t the faintest idea what their incomings/outgoings/savings were. She hadn’t the first clue how to arrange the death certificate or funeral, even when given basic, basic instructions and multiple calls from the bereavement office at the hospital. You might just as well be speaking German to her as having a basic grasp of wills, probate, or transfer of any of DFIL’s accounts to her name. All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address. She has no idea how to book her car in for an MOT, no idea how to even put screen wash in her car. My DH has been helping her with all of this, obviously, but when she asked, ‘Will I still be able to afford holidays?’ he just looked at her with slightly desperate incredulity because she wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to book one, she’s never driven further than 20 minutes from her house by herself (DFIL drove anything further) so would never know how to get to an airport or onto an aeroplane by herself, navigate a foreign country, arrange and deal with foreign currency...

DH and I thought she had managed her own father’s finances and funeral up until he died a couple of years ago but nope - DFIL did it all.

DH is gobsmacked at how lacking in basic skills she is to the point that he’s wondering if she’s even in an early stage of dementia. I don’t think she is, because she is slowly picking up on bits here and there and I think there’s light at the end of the tunnel in giving her some basic competency in running her own life. I think all of the above was just always and entirely DFIL’s responsibility in which she had zero interest so was perfectly happy leaving all the ‘hard stuff’ to him. What we’re not sure of is whether there might have been an element of DFIL realising how utterly inept DMIL was at all of it from the get go and just took over sharpish because it was easier.

What flummoxes me about this, though, is she’s the first generation of women, surely, who would have grown up with the understanding that women could and should be as self-sufficient as possible so would surely have felt some obligation to keep herself more informed and engaged, particularly in their finances? She went back to work after DH was born (their only child) so it’s not like she clung entirely to the role of 50s housewife. What’s more, she was a secondary teacher, working up until 2010 or 2011 so she would have worked well into the technological revolution. She would surely have used computers and email for work, needed to use PowerPoint, Word (DH was showing her the other day how to cut and paste in an email which was new to her...). Her main subject was home economics/food technology but I’m pretty sure her final years were spent doing relief in the one school. Looking at her now, I have a feeling she may have been one of those relief teachers who the kids were delighted to get - a period of sacking off maths because Mrs DH’sMum has no clue on the subject but instead she’d ruffle their hair and reminisce about how she taught their parents.

Before anyone suggests financial abuse on the part of DFIL - no, not the slightest chance. He was the kindest man to ever walk the earth. By contrast, if I ever needed help with childcare, it was DMIL I’d arrange it with as she was their very efficient social secretary - DFIL was scatty as fuck with anything like that. He also never ironed a shirt in his life, packed a suitcase or switched on a hoover - that was her department. So they had clearly defined roles. Nevertheless, if she’d gone first, DFIL would have managed living independently far better than it looks like she will because he knew how to function in the wider world.

Very, very long ramble to basically ask, how common is this? Is she unusually lacking in skills to manage her own life or is this an alarmingly frequent occurrence?

I’m very surprised you’ve ruled out dementia so easily. If your MIL was working as a teacher until 10 years ago then she must have had a basic grasp of emails. Plus to qualify as a teacher she must have been able to follow and retain instructions.

I haven’t ruled out dementia at all JustLyra based on exactly those points. See my earlier post.

There’s no way a person completely incompetent at life skills was a full time teacher in the relatively recent past.

I agree. Hence not having completely ruled out something pathological as I said earlier.

Before anyone suggests financial abuse on the part of DFIL - no, not the slightest chance. He was the kindest man to ever walk the earth

The fact he was outwardly kind absolutely does not guarantee there was no financial abuse.

I can absolutely guarantee you on the lives of both of my beloved children there was no financial abuse. His complete control of the finances was because he was a retired senior tax inspector who was relieving his beloved wife of a job she hated and had no interest in doing. He really was one of the loveliest men that ever lived.

I can absolutely guarantee you on the lives of both of my beloved children there was no financial abuse. His complete control of the finances was because he was a retired senior tax inspector who was relieving his beloved wife of a job she hated and had no interest in doing. He really was one of the loveliest men that ever lived.

I’m not going to get into a debate with you, but you cannot guarantee that at all. No-one can except your MIL.

It’s also questionable how lovely it is to encourage our spouse to be so ignorant of your finances that they are unable to cope alone.

Dementia is something you should keep a very close eye on because unless she’s had some sort of brain injury there’s no way someone should lose so much life skill ability in 10 years.

Good luck with it all

I don’t know what you expect people to say.

Go back and re-read your OP, and imagine what it must read like to someone who hasn’t been pondering the matter for a while, and is coming to it ‘cold’.

You don’t sound particularly nice. In fact, your OP reads as deeply disingenuous. Or you massively lack imagination.

Why would you wonder if all 70-something women are inept, just because you’ve encountered one who is ostensibly so? What an odd conclusion to want to jump to.

I say ‘ostensibly’ because her current lack of ability to process or do anything, is not necessarily indicative of anything - other than she’s just experienced the most profound loss, and is overwhelmed by it. Doesn’t have the brain space for much else.

Have you ever lost anyone very close to you? After ~50 years of a life together with them?

Just to add - most men die first. You’re more likely to encounter men who are completely unable to function without their wives.

Wondering whether ineptitude in older women is widespread is just so odd.

I have the same worries should anything happen to my dad, my mum can’t even drive and won’t have any idea how to pay bills or access bank accounts.
I think maybe it’s a generation thing, 12 years ago my uncle thought it was crazy that I was managing my grandparents finance at 22. He totally missed the fact I had a 1st class degree was on a graduate programmes.

@SaturdayRocks

I think YOU need to re-read my OP, plus that handy little ‘See All’ function to read all my subsequent posts before leaping to vile, insensitive conclusions.

I lost my mother, actually. She dropped dead four years ago this Mother’s Day just gone. She was completely independent in all of her own life admin until the day she died so she was my template in actually assuming most older women were completely capable of managing independently. But you (deliberately?) misread my OP to mean the opposite, so you do you.

I don’t think it is common, especially in someone of 70. However there are personality types who prefer to let someone else handle “stuff” for them and over time it becomes learned helplessness.

My mother is in her mid 80s, was the main breadwinner and ran a financial institution so obviously when it comes to financial stuff she was all over it. She has a super high IQ and can debate you on any subject. However in practical terms she let dad do everything. Acted like driving on the highway was completely beyond her. My father died almost 20 years ago and in that time there have been some things that she just had to do, like getting the car serviced but she’d always let you know how much she’s resented it and how much it “upset” her to make those calls. And then there were ridiculous things she dug her heels in on like she never once filled the car up with petrol. Claimed she didn’t know how. She didn’t drive much and as soon as it hit half a tank she would ask the next person who visited her to do it for her. Drove me bloody insane! So many times I offered to show her but nope she wasn’t having it. I was relieved when she stopped driving and gave up the car. Mind you it’s still in the garage 4 years later because she doesn’t know how to arrange to get rid of it.

The upside is it made me really determined to be a capable person!

She's had an horrific loss, OP. She's lost her soulmate. Her entire world has fallen apart. That's going to have a profound impact, and she is most probably not herself, at all. She will possibly get a lot better at these things as time goes on. It's too early to make a judgement about her capabilities.

Some posters seem to have a bee in their bonnet and I'm not sure why

I can see this being my MIL if she outlived FIL. She is the same age as my DM but much less 'modern', very old fashioned and she hasn't worked since my BIL was born nearly 40 years ago. FIL deals with bills, the car, holidays, MIL does cleaning, shopping, gardening. As PP said, very clearly defined roles. DM got divorced nearly 20 years ago and that forced her to have a go at DIY and become very independent. In a way I think that was good for her.

I do all the financey type stuff for us and I do explain it to DH but he doesn't really pay very much attention. I am acutely aware that we both need to have an awareness of what the other one does and so on. This thread is a good reminder to have that conversation though and make sure we know how to access all accounts and similar.

This reminds me, somehow between both my PIL they didn't realise they had to pay tax on rental income. They thought you just pocketed the lot and got a massive fine a few years ago! I don't know how that passed the pair of them by.

FIL was like this when MIL died. He went to work on a building site, his money was paid into a bank account, and she just took care of everything else.

Like everyone, he just had to learn.

It's probably more common now for both partners to work, and more people use technology for their jobs. Plus technology has changed the way we do admin tasks over the last twenty years, so anyone in their seventies who had left it all to their partner for the last few decades and didn't use a computer for work would be totally lost.

Be kind, she's grieving and finding her feet.

I sympathise OP. I’ve previously worked in a bank and am now in a somewhat related but different role. In my experience, I can confidently say that people of all ages massively struggle with what you or I would determine to be basic life admin. For some people there are genuine reasons but it is astonishing how many people don’t understand their finances or know their income. However, combined with this, grief plays a huge part and can be overwhelming.

I disagree with some posters and I think your posts come from a place of kindness. But I do understand how frustrating it can be. My ex-MIL sounds similar in some respects. She did drive but her ‘role’ was to raise her (now very much adult) children and keep the house. If you wanted to know how to clean something she was your woman. Conversely, her husband earned the money and paid for their lifestyle.

I also think about my own mother who is an intelligent and capable woman but she is dyslexic. This manifests itself into any new tasks becoming too much for her to bare. She can use a computer and emails but she is unable to get her head around anything numerical.

Having said all of this, it sounds as though your frustration is bourne not out of the ‘incompetency’ of your MIL but the unwillingness to learn or be open to it. And that is difficult. I can only suggest that you continue to support her as it seems you’ve been doing with gentle guidance and support along the way

Both my parents and PIL are similar to this, although my Dad has dementia so my Mum is learning to do more.

It very much is, for all of them, about expectations of gender roles. Women don't have the brain power to deal with difficult things like math or technology. DH'S mum seems to really delight in being a bit incapable, giggles and said how she can't learn new things, but she used to use a computer at work. It definitely appears to be deliberately learned incompetence so that she can be ladylike and a bit needy, relying on a big strong man with superior brains to help her out.

Until he had dementia my father absolutely did all financial things as the man's job. It's a shame as my mother is significantly more intelligent with independent finances but because he's the man he did tax returns etc. All of our parents are over 75.

This used to happen with older women (and with men who sometimes have no clue about anything domestic), but I would have thought those days are over for the most part. The 70 year old people I know are capable of anything. I used to let my ex do most stuff because he likes to organise and sort things while I can't be bothered, but when we parted I just took over it myself. It does seem odd for your MIL, especially as she has been working until fairly recently.

@fairydustandsparkle you make lots of good points and I think you've hit the nail on the head with regard to OP's MIL's perhaps unwillingness to learn in her early stages of grief. I can see that tendency in my MIL too, and my DM also has a tend to let people take over and sit back or bury her head in the sand if she can get away with it. It's so easy to do things for people, but in the long run, does that really help them? (Rhetorical question, naturally!). I have this at work too, people who feign incompetence with something and want to be shown time and time again. Nope, I've shown you twice, have a go at it and if you're really stuck I'll come over and give you a pointer or two whilst you do it, and the next time you're on your own!

I do definitely think there’s a learned helplessness as many PPs have suggested, underlying the grief. In her case, there is almost certainly a gender role element. The number of times she and DFIL asked me to ask DH to borrow ‘his’ drill when they needed to do something at theirs. ‘DPIL - I put up every curtain rail in this house in addition to all the bathroom fittings...it’s probably me you should be asking for the drill...’ (tinkly MN laugh)

Definitely not ruling out anything more sinister as I’ve said - but letting grief run an understandable course first.

they think the tradesperson might rip them off because they see old people as an easy touch
See I think they are right to be cautious about this.

I must admit having watched more daytime TV this year than ever before I see stories of people getting scammed and have often thought "idiots".

Until I realised just how alien a lot of technology and new methods of doing things must be to people.

Years ago you would know your bank manager and now it is all sign-ins, codes and the occasional scammer

My MIL is similar. In fact several years ago FIl had a health scare and she developed anxiety (to the point of not being able to leave the house)z She hasn’t made the connection between the two, but if FIL died before her she’d be in the same position to your MIL, except she can book a holiday. Or actually maybe her friends do the booking and she goes along.

I told her not long after the anxiety started maybe she should get FIL to show her how the bills are paid, MOT done, who to call for Odd jobs etc, one thing a month. I don’t think that’s happened and she still has bad anxiety.

My husband does all that sort of “life admin” because he really likes to and I don’t have any interest in it. I’m sure I could right now, if I needed to, but in forty years? Probably not. We have our division of labor and we’d probably both struggle a little to take over the other’s role unexpectedly.

She isn’t incapable, she just hasn’t needed the skills you describe. Dh and I split things like this because it works for us. Whoever outlives the other will have to learn to do the bits they haven’t done for ages. I don’t see that’s a problem. I don’t know why your acting like she’s substandard or broken in some way. I think it’s fairly weird not to share out jobs, seems inefficient to me.

Yes because your MIL was quite dependant, ALL older women lack basic life skills. What a ridiculous post and person you are. Get a hobby

I’m fascinated to know what other people like this do if they don’t have family/close friends to give a lot of help.

It was mentioned on here year ago, (at least I think it was here!) how an elderly widower had no one to help him navigate looking after himself after his wife died, he'd never helped with cleaning, cooking, clothes washing etc. He didn't have a clue how to make the food he liked for himself and he didn't have the internet.

So he went to the library to borrow books on the things he needed to know. And asked the librarians, who were happy to help. One book at a time, he learned the basic skills he needed to look after himself.

My mother was the same and would have been in her 90s had she lived. I don't think it's that unusual for some, not all of the older generation of people. If my mother had lived, she wouldn't have been able to work a computer I don't think. I remember chatting to a lady as we were both sitting waiting to see someone in a bank. This was a good few years ago, the lady told me she had been widowed a matter of days and financial wise she didn't know where to start. Her husband took care of all finances. I told her she was in the best place for advice and that the bank would help her and she would get used to things. I felt sorry for her, but also vowed I would not end up like her. Not meant in a nasty way. I hope she got on ok.

It can work the other way around too.
When my mother died 8 years ago my father hadn't a clue how to run the house, how to clean, cook, do the laundry. He's learnt though - well apart from the cleaning as he got himself a cleaner - but other than that he taught himself to bake, to cook, launder etc. He was 79 and is 86 now and apart from the cleaning manages everything in the household competently .
My mother would have had the same learning curve with regards finances and household admin.

If one person in a couple does most of the admin stuff then naturally the other doesn't learn to and of course it gets harder to learn once you're older. Also, people of that generation didn't get as much help in school as kids do today if they had any sort of issue with literacy or anything. So they fell behind a lot more, if she is dyslexic for example she won't have had the help needed to overcome the condition enough to function. It's very common.

Could she have ADHD - that often manifests as a lack of life skills and 90% of women who have it are undiagnosed - and the number's probably higher among your mum's generation.