If you're a SAHM, do you feel judged? And if you're a working mum, do you judge a SAHM?

[ItalianRed]

Hi,

So I've been out of work for 15 years, apart from a couple of part time jobs here and there. I have a teenager and so have the time, but for several reasons, I'm not currently working. Financially, I don't need to, but there are other reasons too.

I often see on social media, the debate about SAHMs once dc are in school and if it's lazy or even anti feminist to not go back to work.

A couple of my friends recently dug themselves a hole on separate occasions when talking about a school mum friend who didn't work. One said "what does she actually do all day? Her husband even does the cooking some nights!" And the other said "She must be so bored and feel like she doesn't have a real identity". They were both quick to clumsily back track and say they're not referring to me because I'm obviously different Why? Because I'm their friend? I'm still a woman who chooses not to work and who, shock horror, doesn't cook ever single family meal! 😲

In the past when I've heard similar comments, I'd say don't worry about it, you've not offended me etc, even if they had because I didn't want them to feel awkward or embarrassed, but this last time I just smiled and said nothing. One of them even said that this particular mum is perfectly nice, but she needs to keep her at "arms length", for no other reason that I could see other than she didn't work.

The more I thought about it, the more it pissed me off. They're really judgey, bitchy comments to make. It seems as though if you do choose to be a SAHM, then unless you're constantly scrubbing, cleaning, cooking, volunteering and on various committees, then you're looked down on.

Be interesting to hear your perspectives....

I'm a working mum of two and feel hugely judged by many sahm I know who like to casually drop in how awful it is for 'strangers' to look after children at nursery. I also felt a huge gulf between working mums and sahm during the last year - basically what a selfish bitch I am not to stop working and homeschool full time, how awful am I to risk the community by using a nursery instead of quitting work etc etc.

No, I don't think so. It's MN. It's the nature of the beast. You could have posted about skinny jeans and got similar amounts of divisive hyperbole.

I don’t have any SAHM friends. I’m a WOHM mum. This isn’t for any particular reason, I mean I haven’t made a conscious effort to not be friends with them. I think my friendship circle are quite an ambitious lot, so maybe it’s just a case of birds of a feather? I don’t judge SAHMs though because I don’t give it much headspace.

@RUOKHon

I’ve been a WOHM and a SAHM. I never felt judged doing either role in the real world. But I was judged to fuck when posting on here.

SAHMs get so much shit on here. I can’t believe the way some posters think it’s okay to talk to others about life choices they’ve made that have absolutely nothing to do with anyone else and don’t affect them all. The bile and the condescension is something else. It could only be worse if you were a stepmother! (Which I also am)

And I see the reverse of this on this site...

Comments like “I like to be at home with my children to raise them correctly” (implying my child would be feral) and as someone earlier said “why have children when you leave them for someone else”.
As ex husband walked out whilst I was still on maternity leave I had no choice. And to be judged trying to work and do the housework and the homework and everything else as it was just me, was nasty.
Also SAHP parents saying they were a mother as opposed to me which was what?

I sometimes wonder what SAHP parents do all day but in a musing way, not judging. Lottery win and I would give up work in a flash even though my child is an adult and moved out.

Judging works in both ways and is nasty and unsupportive of women and their individual choices.

Usually if you have saddled yourself with an arsehole then you can't outrun it by keeping your hours up

Ha! Yes, basically. If your partner or husband is a prick, you’re going to be screwed over either way.

I don’t judge. Being a SAHM is not for me. I am an introvert but I need the social interaction I get from work. But, I don’t judge those who enjoy it. Why would I? People are doing what is best for them and their families and that’s nothing to do with me.

I didn’t used to, and then I had 6 months of gardening leave, which I used to live a SAHM life and I’m afraid now I do.

I really can’t answer the question ‘what do you do all day’ - I saw boredom, day drinking and people involving themselves in petty politics and other people’s lives because they had nothing meaningful to do between school runs.

There are some who wear it like a weird badge of pride, and still have a cleaner, make their husbands do half the cooking etc

I think they think it makes them look in control and financially sorted.
They are mostly just quite lazy and not doing their mental health much good with all the meddling they do

@Ragwort

Totally agree Four - why do people assume you've only got interesting things to talk about if you in paid employment? Let's be honest, lots of paid jobs are mind numbingly boring to others unless you are in the same line ... my DB used to work for a very large, well known, interesting company ... his job was incredibly dull and tedious in IT (even he said that) - there was nothing to 'talk about'.

I find that few people actually talk about their job or their children - there are plenty of other subjects to talk about. Of course you do occasionally meet the bore who goes on non-stop about their job / or their children (or worse - both) . Maybe I'm lucky but it's only on Mumsnet that people drone on about how much their baby sleeps, what nursery to choose and if their child is doing well at school. Most of us get on with the interesting things in life.

Exactly. I can't think of many jobs that are that interesting..

I'm a sahm/housewife/whatever and we have 3 children (5, 9 and 14). I'm reasonably financially secure so if my partner was to fuck off it wouldn't be the end of the world. He works very long hours and so I do pretty much everything which I think is only fair and suits us both. A few people have asked me if I am intending to get a job now the kids are at school, perhaps they were judging but I honestly don't care!

Yes I judge SAHM.

It’s the endless claims of ‘busy’ that does it for me when they wouldn’t know busy if it stopped them in the street. In my experience it’s the school run, a few hours of popping to the supermarket, maybe a bit of housework then it’s time for the school run again. Many have nothing else going on in their lives - this is just my opinion and experience!!!!

I have to say on mn there is often an assumption that all mums would be sahm if they could

@eatsleepyogarepeat

Yes I judge SAHM.

It’s the endless claims of ‘busy’ that does it for me when they wouldn’t know busy if it stopped them in the street. In my experience it’s the school run, a few hours of popping to the supermarket, maybe a bit of housework then it’s time for the school run again. Many have nothing else going on in their lives - this is just my opinion and experience!!!!

I'm always busy, but doing things I want to do!

@Cannotgarden

I'm a working mum of two and feel hugely judged by many sahm I know who like to casually drop in how awful it is for 'strangers' to look after children at nursery. I also felt a huge gulf between working mums and sahm during the last year - basically what a selfish bitch I am not to stop working and homeschool full time, how awful am I to risk the community by using a nursery instead of quitting work etc etc.

Oh god yes!

' Oh! So you're still working? Well who's helping xxxx with her schoolwork then? Poor little lamb must be sooooo bored and lonely if she's having to sort herself out! Cant you be furloughed, or leave your job for a while?'

I was helping DD with her schoolwork, and working, I would start work at 6am and finish at midnight, taking lots of breaks to do schoolwork, make food, do bedtime or bake cakes, or whatever else needed doing. The house was a shit tip and no I could be furloughed or leave my job because my job still needed doing and we still needed to eat and pay the mortgage.

Being at home with babies/toddlers/preschoolers and primary school aged kids is quite different in terms of the amount of practical parental input they need, from being a SAHM of teens. Even once DC have started school there are often requests for parents to attend or help in school for various things.the older they get the less "involved" parents seem to be day to day with school.

Interestingly I've noticed Dads being commended for taking toddlers to groups etc or being SAHD with young children, in a way mothers doing the same thing are criticised or taken for granted.

But if a man was a SAHD with teens, and played golf, went to the gym, or went to the pub every day when his DW was working FT, on here, hed probably have his arse handed to him on a plate...?

@badlydrawnbear

I don’t judge. Being a SAHM is not for me. I am an introvert but I need the social interaction I get from work. But, I don’t judge those who enjoy it. Why would I? People are doing what is best for them and their families and that’s nothing to do with me.

I could have written this. I like the controlled and time limited nature of chatting to lots of different people about plenty of different things but not having to keep conversation going for hours on end. Without that, I would struggle to initiate meet ups with more than my very closest friends because I find extended small talk dull and tiring.

No, I don’t.
But I do judge working mums who choose luxury unnecessary bought ‘stuff’ over spending time with their child Monday-friday.
Working mums who genuinely need the cash to afford to live is different but in my view, your time is the most precious thing you can give a small child. Nothing is more important and personally I would live in a crap area / go without what ever I could to be able to raise my child and not palm my children over to someone else to do it for me.

@Quit4me I hope that opinion extends to working fathers as much as it does working mothers, a woman's salary isn't a luxury extra.

I do, really, if someone gave up work for good once they got married. They've sort of lost their identity and just become Mum/Wife.

I wouldn't judge when the children are small, but I wonder why you would not want career and financial independence and what you would do all day if you've got older teens/DC that don't need you.

It strikes me as an unsatisfying life of either being a housewife or a "lady who lunches" if her DH is wealthy enough. I feel it would create a power balance in the relationship and wonder how you could feel you were contributing equally if your kids were out all day/grown.

That's just my opinion though. And I'm old enough to remember Carla Lane's "Butterflies" and always imagine SAHM are like Wendy Craig in the show. Bored and unfulfilled.

If I didn’t have to work for financial reasons then I wouldn’t, even if I didn’t have a child.
Same for DH as well though really.

I don’t judge anyone who doesn’t go to work when they don’t have to. Good for them.

I wouldn’t judge anyone for choosing to go to work when they didn’t have to either, even with kids at home.

I’d probably be a bit judgey if someone moaned about not having any money but didn’t work, when they’re kids are in school and they have the time and capability. Even not judgey really, just unsympathetic 🤷‍♀️

@Quit4me

No, I don’t. But I do judge working mums who choose luxury unnecessary bought ‘stuff’ over spending time with their child Monday-friday. Working mums who genuinely need the cash to afford to live is different but in my view, your time is the most precious thing you can give a small child. Nothing is more important and personally I would live in a crap area / go without what ever I could to be able to raise my child and not palm my children over to someone else to do it for me.

And what are single parents meant to do? It is this attitude that judges us. My time might well have been the most precious thing I could have given my child but that doesn’t pay the bills and makes me feel like I failed because I couldn’t spend every waking hour with them I know you caveat with people who genuinely need the cash but you still go onto make the same comments that make people like me feel utter shit. “Palm my children off”. FFS.

I don’t judge with the exception of women that get themselves in ridiculously precarious situations (not on the deeds, not married, not worked since they were v young and no qualifications, and none of their own funds at all) i think there is enough information out there now to make it clear that is a bloody shit idea and could end disastrously.

@Quit4me

No, I don’t. But I do judge working mums who choose luxury unnecessary bought ‘stuff’ over spending time with their child Monday-friday. Working mums who genuinely need the cash to afford to live is different but in my view, your time is the most precious thing you can give a small child. Nothing is more important and personally I would live in a crap area / go without what ever I could to be able to raise my child and not palm my children over to someone else to do it for me.

So WOHMs who work because they have a career/interest/passion and want to be able to provide luxuries and financial stability for their family should just stop because they're really just neglectful gits palming their kids off on someone else to raise?

@QuitMoaning no, if you read what I wrote, I did say that I know some people have no choice- I don’t mean mums or dads who are single and have to work to live

A good amount of all this debate is clearly people fabricating shitty things to say about other people to even the score about shitty things said about them.

@Macarena1990

They've sort of lost their identity and just become Mum/Wife.

The implication of that, though, is that you think a person’s identity is intrinsically tied in with their job. Which you may do - fair enough. I never did.

This thread makes me think back to the agony column that the brilliant Lucy Kellaway used to write for the Financial Times. A woman wrote in to say that she had given up her job as a corporate lawyer to look after her kids, but worried that she’d have nothing to talk about and that people wouldn’t want to sit next to her at parties. Lucy’s reply was along the lines of “do what’s best for you”, but then added “but there’s nothing that makes my heart sink faster at a party than finding out I’m sitting next to a corporate lawyer....” Basically, some people are interesting and some aren’t. I’ve never noticed a particular correlation between those who work and those who don’t. I always assume that people do what’s best for them and for their family (which might be different from what I would think best in a similar situation).