If you're a SAHM, do you feel judged? And if you're a working mum, do you judge a SAHM?

[ItalianRed]

Hi,

So I've been out of work for 15 years, apart from a couple of part time jobs here and there. I have a teenager and so have the time, but for several reasons, I'm not currently working. Financially, I don't need to, but there are other reasons too.

I often see on social media, the debate about SAHMs once dc are in school and if it's lazy or even anti feminist to not go back to work.

A couple of my friends recently dug themselves a hole on separate occasions when talking about a school mum friend who didn't work. One said "what does she actually do all day? Her husband even does the cooking some nights!" And the other said "She must be so bored and feel like she doesn't have a real identity". They were both quick to clumsily back track and say they're not referring to me because I'm obviously different Why? Because I'm their friend? I'm still a woman who chooses not to work and who, shock horror, doesn't cook ever single family meal! 😲

In the past when I've heard similar comments, I'd say don't worry about it, you've not offended me etc, even if they had because I didn't want them to feel awkward or embarrassed, but this last time I just smiled and said nothing. One of them even said that this particular mum is perfectly nice, but she needs to keep her at "arms length", for no other reason that I could see other than she didn't work.

The more I thought about it, the more it pissed me off. They're really judgey, bitchy comments to make. It seems as though if you do choose to be a SAHM, then unless you're constantly scrubbing, cleaning, cooking, volunteering and on various committees, then you're looked down on.

Be interesting to hear your perspectives....

@OuiOuiKitty

Nope. I am self employed and work from home. Most people assume I am a sahm and I don't bother correcting them. Obviously people close to me know but mums at the school gate etc all assume I am sahm and talk about how I must love having the morning to myself etc. I just smile and nod.

Yes I'm the same. The last time I had a "proper job" as in employed by a company was in January 2003.

I have freelanced for myself for years and done everything from being a film extra to mystery shopping to freelance writing. But I was always there to help at school when they were looking for volunteers, did the drop offs and pick ups, went to the gym, met people for lunch. Most people probably assumed I was a SAHP. So what.

Personally I find it a bit sad that anyone - male or female - needs work to feel fulfilled or defined as a person. There is so much more to life than work.

It's such a 'sneering' attitude to comment 'I wonder what SAHMs do all day' ... there are plenty of paid roles which sound like made up jobs where you could equally say 'I wonder what that person actually does all day'.

Would you say that about retired people, those who can't work for health reasons etc etc?

When I was a SAHM with a school age child my life was much more interesting and varied than it is now I am back at work (although fortunately I work part time so I have time and energy for other things), I had a range of fulfilling & challenging volunteering positions etc. I think many people who are in paid work have no real idea of what goes on in the community.

Some of the comments at the beginning of lockdown showed this - many people seemed to have little idea of what support was available in the community - much of it provided by volunteers.

@LoveFromDeauville

I have to be honest. I do wonder what a SAHM does all day, particularly those with older children. Both DH and I have full on finance roles but we love it. I’ve never considered giving it up, much as I adore the DC. When I hear a SAHM lament that she is busy I’d probably role by eyes if I actually had time to!

What do you do all day at weekends or on holiday @LoveFromDeauville? Maybe go for a walk in the sunshine, or read a book, or do some studying, or volunteer?

People who say "I don't know what a SAHM does all day" are just showing how lacking in imagination they are. There are 1001 things that SAHMs could be doing when their kids are out of the house.

I’ve done stints of SAHM in between jobs and have never understood why people would judge either way. Especially when most of the time they know nothing about your actual family circumstances.

E.g. I know a few SAHM who have independent means - either family money or a successful business they built up and then sold for a good price - meaning they don’t need to work.

And they have a great life - loads of time consuming hobbies, charity work, travel etc.
Definitely not boring in any way at all!

Let’s be fair - most people work because they need the money and would maybe do something different if they didn’t need to.

Another SAHM I know practises piano for 2-3 hours a day when her kids are at school - she used to be a music teacher - she could easily go back to that if necessary but they don’t need the money.

I don’t why there is such an obsession with the world of work tbh - it’s not that great for most people. You don’t have to have a paid job to have a fulfilling life.

I’ve done sahm, wohm and wfh and really there’s always someone who thinks it’s not the best choice for some reason.

So I just choose what I want most (and suits family) really.

Yes I feel massively judged and I probably judge myself (but don't judge others). Everything in the UK is set up to push both partners to work and be in the rat race regardless of children. Examples are if you don't both work:

Harder to buy a house (even if you can afford it)
Harder to rent a house (even if you can afford it)
Entitled to things like less nursery hours
That feeling you get when you have no choice but to put "unemployed" on forms etc despite having a a degree and career.
Constantly being questioned "when are you going back then?" Or "it'll be easier when you both work"

What's always baffled me is maternity leave is only 9-12 months long yet if you're breastfeeding then it's a WHO recommendation to BF up until 2. So how would that work?
Just feels like everything is set up to pressure women to work even when they don't want to. I do not find it empowering at all.

I’ve been a WOHM and a SAHM. I never felt judged doing either role in the real world. But I was judged to fuck when posting on here.

SAHMs get so much shit on here. I can’t believe the way some posters think it’s okay to talk to others about life choices they’ve made that have absolutely nothing to do with anyone else and don’t affect them all. The bile and the condescension is something else. It could only be worse if you were a stepmother! (Which I also am)

I work full time and have never been a SAHM. I do think some are vulnerable and reading threads on here prove that in a shit relationship they often feel they have no choice but to put up and shut up. It's not all about earning loads of money, it's about independence, confidence. Getting out the house, meeting people that aren't involved in your immediate life, building a pension etc. At any time they could be on their own fending for themselves.

A family member was a SAHM and had never worked. Her husband died and whilst financially sound she had no idea about paying bills, travel, finances etc because she left it all to him over the years. It was a massive learning curve for her and she still doesn't understand a lot of it now. Funnily enough he was about to leave her but tragically died before he did. Should this have happened after he had left her should would be is the same position as she is now.

To those saying that they'd have nothing in common, nothing to talk about with a SAHP, do you really only talk about your work with your friends? I don't get this at all.

The working mums I know speak mostly about their dc and leisure time. Maybe they might occasionally bring up how manic their week has been, but that's it.

One of the friends I mentioned in my OP actually never talks about work. Ever. I think I've only ever heard them mention they're upping or cutting back on working hours. Yes, I suspect if they had a friend in the exact same field, then they'd talk more about work with them, but just being in work - any work, isn't really much of a topic of conversation is it?

Tbh I don't care either way. Being a sahm is not for me but I don't yet drive and buses here are hit and miss, so I would be restricted a lot. I work part time, I could theoretically go full time once my kids are at high school and able to stay home on their own after school but I have no plans to. Simple reason is I like the balance that I have, we live quite simply, dh is happy with me working part time and I would quite like to be home when my kids get in from school. I'm trying to do my best I don't judge others for their choices, I haven't got the energy.

@Pricklypear12

Yes I feel massively judged and I probably judge myself (but don't judge others). Everything in the UK is set up to push both partners to work and be in the rat race regardless of children. Examples are if you don't both work:

Harder to buy a house (even if you can afford it)
Harder to rent a house (even if you can afford it)
Entitled to things like less nursery hours
That feeling you get when you have no choice but to put "unemployed" on forms etc despite having a a degree and career.
Constantly being questioned "when are you going back then?" Or "it'll be easier when you both work"

What's always baffled me is maternity leave is only 9-12 months long yet if you're breastfeeding then it's a WHO recommendation to BF up until 2. So how would that work?
Just feels like everything is set up to pressure women to work even when they don't want to. I do not find it empowering at all.

I do think there needs to be far more support for early years parents, especially women - funding for community support for example, longer, paid paternity leaves so mothers have support in the baby stage, free or at least much cheaper childcare, return to work schemes, perhaps even some kind of early years grant for the first three years of a child’s life, instead of child benefit. I don’t know, I’m not a policymaker.

But you say ‘women are pressured to work even if they don’t want to’ which to me is a bit of a dangerous train of thought, because the logical opposite is women being pressured NOT to work, which will set women’s rights and autonomy back centuries. I don’t think mothers should have special dispensation to opt out of work or be expected not to work just because they’re mothers. Instead, wouldn’t it be better if society adapted to mothers’ needs, with things like the suggestions I’ve mentioned above, more on-site crèches and flexibility, fair and transparent salary schemes, and active societal encouragement for men to do their share of parenting too?

The SAHM/WOHM debate is also a very heteronormative topic, which to me shows how rooted in patriarchy these roles are, and painting being a SAHM as a free choice under the current conditions we live in is not true.

I’m a SAHM. I couldn’t care less what people think of me 🤣. I know my value and that’s all that matters.

No but it's not about talking about work - it's about having an outlook in common.
If you're busy with voluntary projects then that would be similar. It's about spending time with people who are working towards something or who have common goals/outlooks.

I would be unlikely to be friends with someone who relied entirely on her partner to support her if she wasn't contributing (to childcare etc) because I find the idea of a woman expecting a man to support her a bit archaic. To me relationships are partnerships where you work together and being financially dependent on someone is a precarious situation.

Similarly if you were independently wealthy but did nothing all day except gym/lunch/spa appointments. It's just a very different outlook.

That's all ok - different strokes for different folks, but I would expect there to be much common ground

It’s not so much about talking about the details of work itself, I think it’s more that most people are drawn to make friends with people whose lifestyles are broadly similar to their own. But generally, “how’s work?” and discussion along that topic is part of standard conversation when catching up with a friend. We wouldn’t go into tedious detail, but we would usually say “I got a promotion/my boss is driving me mad” etc.

I definitely don't judge (live and let live and all) but I do wonder how SAHMs whose kids are older fill their days if they don't volunteer or have hobbies. I would climb the walls with boredom so it's a horses for courses thing for me.

It's also this notion of if you're not busy busy busy all the time, not even having enough time to roll your eyes, like a pp, then you're not doing it right.

I’ve been asked “what do you do all day?”. I don’t think she would ask that question of her nanny, but hey ho.

Anyway the more relevant question is what do I do on evenings and weekends.

Dh and I had some very frank discussions about our family values and lifestyle choices. I didn’t want to work under the circumstances that @LolaSmiles described and neither did he. We didn’t feel that wrap around care suited the needs of our autistic ds. And, as a family, my staying at home has given us a lovely lifestyle with an excellent work:life balance.

One of the driving forces of feminism was the utter contempt for women’s unpaid work as mothers, housewives and carers. Feminism has created opportunities for women to take part in a the world of work that was traditionally male, to be lawmakers, politicians etc. But the contempt for those who work in traditionally female spheres remains. It’s deeply ignorant and ironic to say that being a sahm is anti feminist. The problem isn’t with sahms; feminism has much more to do before we achieve anything close to gender equality.

I don't judge. Different strokes for different folks and all that - if it works for you and your family, brilliant.

However I do wonder sometimes how SAHP's with children in school fill their time. But I'm not above admitting that much of that wonderment comes from a place that is probably envious and/or jealous.

I work f/t and have two children and a partner who does shift work. It's been 9 years since I had any real time to myself, and that's with a partner who completely pulls his weight when he's around. Now I'm fully conscious that this is my choice and I'm happy with it, BUT it does mean that I've truly lost any idea of what it might be like to have time to do hobbies, to keep properly on top of the housework, to volunteer, to do all the things that I imagine a SAHP with school age children does. I suppose because like many families with WOHP, all the "life admin" gets squashed in during lunchtimes and the commute and the weekend, so again it's hard to imagine spreading it out and doing it in peace and quiet.

I do think it's quite natural though for people to not quite be able to picture how other people have made their life choices or make their life work. I can see how a lot of people find it hard to get around the idea of both parents working f/t.

I would never judge someone who did not work if their family finances allowed them to make that decision. I think it's fine and actually it bothers me more that society only seems to judge a person's worth by their ability to earn money. However, I do think we all have a duty to contribute to society in one way or another so if they were not raising children, or helping to raise grandchildren, and didn't do any voluntary work I think I might judge them. Having known a few people (not just women) who do not need to work I have usually found them to be rather vapid and out of touch with reality.

I do judge sahm. I was left alone and in debt by my husband while pregnant. without my job and good maternity leave etc I would've been homeless. My new mil chose not to work and relied on dh2 stepdad. Dh remembers real poverty, home repossessions, missing out on school trips etc how much of that could've been avoided if his mum had worked? Now the house isn't in her name and she's unmarried and stuck. I try to use these real life experiences to teach dd how important her education, independence, and a good career are for women. A year or 2 at home while the children are small, ok. Anything more I wouldn't support my dd to do that

I don't really care what others do with pre school children, I understand both sides whilst knowing exactly what was right for me and my family, but I would silently judge someone who doesn't work when kids are in school. I don't understand what people can do at home all day or how that can be fulfilling, plus it seems quite risky to me. Only saying that online hiding behind my phone, wouldn't say it to anyone in person, although come to think of it I don't know anyone who doesn't work at least part time with 5+ aged kids.

I am a working Mum and I guess I do judge a little...I do wonder what the SAHM does all day once the kids are at school. I also wonder why they would want to do it as I get alot of enjoyment from my work as well as a salary of course, independence, self-worth etc. I would be bored without my career. I would also worry my husband would respect me less...I have seen that alot with SAHMs. Both came into the marriage as equals but then the mother loses her status, has to defer to her husband for spending money etcetc..

But each to their own. You have to do what's right for you.

I would also worry my husband would respect me less...I have seen that alot with SAHMs.

I haven't seen that at all. Nor have I seen marriages suffer with wohms. Usually if you have saddled yourself with an arsehole then you can't outrun it by keeping your hours up.

Or dropping them, either!

Hmm so actually in reality, still a lot of judgement.