If you're a SAHM, do you feel judged? And if you're a working mum, do you judge a SAHM?

[ItalianRed]

Hi,

So I've been out of work for 15 years, apart from a couple of part time jobs here and there. I have a teenager and so have the time, but for several reasons, I'm not currently working. Financially, I don't need to, but there are other reasons too.

I often see on social media, the debate about SAHMs once dc are in school and if it's lazy or even anti feminist to not go back to work.

A couple of my friends recently dug themselves a hole on separate occasions when talking about a school mum friend who didn't work. One said "what does she actually do all day? Her husband even does the cooking some nights!" And the other said "She must be so bored and feel like she doesn't have a real identity". They were both quick to clumsily back track and say they're not referring to me because I'm obviously different Why? Because I'm their friend? I'm still a woman who chooses not to work and who, shock horror, doesn't cook ever single family meal! 😲

In the past when I've heard similar comments, I'd say don't worry about it, you've not offended me etc, even if they had because I didn't want them to feel awkward or embarrassed, but this last time I just smiled and said nothing. One of them even said that this particular mum is perfectly nice, but she needs to keep her at "arms length", for no other reason that I could see other than she didn't work.

The more I thought about it, the more it pissed me off. They're really judgey, bitchy comments to make. It seems as though if you do choose to be a SAHM, then unless you're constantly scrubbing, cleaning, cooking, volunteering and on various committees, then you're looked down on.

Be interesting to hear your perspectives....

For us it's been a mutual decision and we've reviewed it regularly. We couldn't be happier with the way things are, and I don't know why some people are so against that. Basically don't we all just want a happy life?
I think you're right on reviewing it regularly.
We considered having a SAHP and decided after splitting parental leave that it wasn't for us, so both work part time. That will be reviewed and circumstances can change. If either of us becomes a SAHP then they will have a private pension paid into from family money and it will be reviewed regularly.

The people I know who are happiest in WOHP/SAHP set ups are the ones who review regularly according to family aims, children's needs, finances etc.
I also know families where there's resentment because what started off as staying at home for a couple of years drifts into 'until they're at school, ... until they're in secondary... maybe I get a job, I'm too busy to do more than a few hours a week with 17 year old children etc' and it has caused issues because that was never the plan for the family. At least one person I know in that situation is complaining that they're finding (early) retirement financially tight and I can't help but think "no shit, Sherlock".

Why is it not possible to be a PT in lots of carrers?

@TownTalkJewels puts it well - because the training and overheads are vastly more efficient spent on a full time worker. Plus - any job which requires your continuous judgement can’t really be split. If I’m running your pension fund, I can’t be off on Tuesdays and Wednesdays (and nobody can just step in for me). If I’m managing your legal matter it’s similarly difficult etc etc. Some places allow 4 days, but knowing people who’ve done it, you just get the same workload for 20% less money, so it’s not the panacea they think it is.

If someone asked me what I do I'd tell them that I worked in banking for 20 years but gave it up when I adopted the DC. That then allows follow up questions about where I worked , which sector , any plans to go back , mutual ex colleagues etc. Also opens up discussions about adoption if people are interested which I've always found they are. It also allows the person to maybe ask how or why I decided to give up my career. Some would find my answers interesting and if more people asked they may understand SAHMs position a bit more.

If I asked someone what they did and then they just answered that they were a mum I'd find that quite odd and would struggle to find a way to continue that conversation even though I'm a SAHM too.

Some places allow 4 days, but knowing people who’ve done it, you just get the same workload for 20% less money, so it’s not the panacea they think it is.
That's my experience and one of the reasons I have regularly considered changing jobs to something less demanding. One of my pet hates is being off for a day and coming back to a full inbox when people know I don't work full time, sometimes asking for 'urgent' information information to be provided that day (and by urgent I mean something that could easily be found themselves by opening a spreadsheet but it'seasier to email someone else).

DH doesn't have this problem in his role though as 4 days and 5 days compressed into 4 days are quite typical arrangements.

Anyone being judgey is simply justifying their own position and choices. Shouldn't have to, but that's what comes from living with the patriarchy and internalised misogyny.

Thanks for explaining, it makes more sense now. I've never worked in any of those areas so dont really know how those industries operate. To me it seemed a waste of opportunity that there will be well qualified people at home because their job has to be all or nothing.

fizbosshoes
Some industries are better than others. Before I entered teaching, flexitime was normal in my line of work and it was quite common for part time positions to be advertised. I know men and women who made the most of this.

Now in teaching you're lucky if anything part time is advertised and it's common for women to be pressured, directly or indirectly, to give up their leadership roles if they go part time because there's not a culture of part time middle to senior roles in the sector.

I've been on both sides of the fence, worked fulltime, stayed at home for a few years, now happily somewhere in the middle with part-time work.

Sadly, women are shitty to one another no matter what their circumstances or choices they have made. It just needs to stop. It is so very catty and petty, and an outlet for feelings of envy and insecurity.

I’m a full time working mum and I absolutely couldn’t be a SAMH. I don’t judge them for it, I just can’t understand how they’re happy and fulfilled. As my child gets older I am slightly jealous of all the time they have child free, all my childcare is used to go to work, all my time off I’m doing the childcare.

No don't feel judged at all, I'm in an area with a lot of SAHMs but not the wealthy type. It's either the ones on benefits or ones with partners on average wages and just live frugally.

Yes part time has to be part of the culture and for both men or women, otherwise it doesn't work. When I was in a revenue generating role, the clients would not have wanted to hear anything about Wednesdays off, they wanted the service when they wanted it. The company would not have actually taken into account pro-rata revenue when considering promotions. In other roles, as pp said, you are still expected to do the work, will just earn less.

However, I work a lot with Scandinavians and there, various part time arrangements are so common that it really seems to work. Adjusting work schedule to meet your family's needs is not seen as not being committed.

I always worked part time until later when I went full time, had plenty of time at home. I never judged anyone else for their decisions, it wasn't my business. We needed my income, I enjoyed my work and it was good for me in other ways.

People should mind their own business.

My mother and mother in law never worked (mil worked until she had my husband a couple of years after marriage, she had a good job too but gave it up). Their homes were immaculate and food on the table at certain times. However they stretched their housework and shopping to fit the days, it wouldn't have suited me.

I often wonder what my mother, who never worked after marriage, did for eighteen and a half years before I came along! She and my dad were in a small flat, moved when I was a baby. Still, not my biz. Neither approved of me going back to work at first but I ignored; they got used to it and I must say were extremely helpful.

I'm a lawyer and work part time. In fact, and this is probably outing, but I am a commercial lawyer in a silver circle firm, so City expectations/timings. I have understanding bosses and I generally work alongside a junior who can answer the easy questions and keep things ticking along for me on my non-working days and then call me with anything urgent and I monitor my emails at lunchtime on my non working days and juggle a bit from time to time, but am pretty much entirely focused on my DD on my non working days. Other colleagues who work part time do the same, So, it can be done, but:

• I am absolutely treading water career wise - there is no prospect of partnership on a three day week like mine - I don't care about this, but others might; AND

• with two working parents in "professional" City careers and pre school kids, we tend to pickup the slack in our evenings during the week. We definitely don't spend enough time together in the week, as it really is, work, kids, eat, work, sleep. If I was a SAHM then my husband would probably be done with work earlier and we would both have more leisure time together.

But to answer the question. I don't judge SAHMs. I do question it where someone is unmarried and leaves themselves financially very vulnerable, but I think that is just poor judgement. My mum was a SAHM and she did struggle when we at secondary school and it made my life more difficult that she was too involved, so I would try to avoid that for myself, personally. But I don't project that on others - I often benefit from those who are SAHMs - they organise the presents for pre school teachers for Christmas and generally do lots of things that are community minded.

Some places allow 4 days, but knowing people who’ve done it, you just get the same workload for 20% less money, so it’s not the panacea they think it is.

Not necessarily. I've been 4 days since DC1 and it works really well for me (at multiple orgs). I've been promoted more than once and am rated highly on performance. There is a growing evidence base that it's possible to be as productive, or more so, in four days (Google the "four day workweek evidence") and some progressive orgs have trialled a 4 day week for everyone. I do do things to make it work - I focus on high impact work, I do my best to avoid getting involved in anything of marginal benefit, and I don't take on stuff just to be "nice", ever. I emphasise the ways I can contribute uniquely and have the highest impact and my bosses are generally happy with it. I'm a bit of a hardarse, basically. I don't work on my NWD or check email. However, this is org-dependent; at my org we have senior MDs/CEOs who work 4 days. I do of course have the 20% paycut, but I'm happy with this compromise for now. When I was younger I worked with a number of women who talked about the "FT work for PT pay" trap and I was always conscious of not falling into it. It seemed that women working 3 days actually struggled the worst with this as there was no way to deliver a FT equivalent in 3 days, whereas a FT equivalent or close can be done in 4 days if you are focused and ruthless.

When both my DC are in school, I hope that DH and I will both move to a 9-day fortnight and be able to have FT pay and still every other Friday off.

Anyone being judgey is simply justifying their own position and choices. Shouldn't have to, but that's what comes from living with the patriarchy and internalised misogyny

^^This.

I don’t think you can assume people are being snotty or whatever by not responding immediately to, “I’m a mum”. It’s just an odd thing to say in that conversation, lots of people would be thrown by it.

Some interesting comments on part time working and differing attitudes towards fathers compared to men.
In my experience part time working is possible even in some senior, professional roles but part time workers do tend to be treated less favourably in a variety of ways. For instance, in my previous job part timers were required to do exactly the same amount of mandatory training and CPD as full timers but the training time in our job plans was reduced pro rata. If training days fell on my day off I was still expected to attend, wasn't paid for it and never received time off in lieu. I, and the other part time members of the department were often allocated to work that everyone knew would run late. I suspect it was a lot to do with the fact that we only got paid our standard rate for extra hours until we had exceeded full time hours, not our own contracted hours whereas the full timers went onto overtime rates straight away. There were quite a lot of disadvantages to being part time but it was a compromise I felt I had to make. I definitely lost more pay than work but it made our family situation workable.
My DH also made compromises with regard to his career but the general opinion of family, friends, colleagues etc towards him was quite different. He was praised for the sacrifices he was making for his family - treated as some kind of hero in fact. He did the majority of the school runs when our children were in primary school and was fawned over by most of the staff and Mums as he was the only regular school run Dad. His mother made comments about how he was "both mother and father to those children" and people would say how lucky I was to have a husband who would do things like that for me. Nobody ever said that he was lucky to have me paying the mortgage for him mind you!
Basically men who share domestic and childcare duties with their wives are seen as special and heroic, but women who share money earning duties with their husbands are perceived as selfish and neglectful of their "real" responsibilities.
But on the other hand it's also been said that women who stay at home to facilitate their husband's career are doormats who are letting other women down by conforming to sterotypes, but SAHDs are great because that's progressive.
Seriously, who makes this shit up? Whatever the woman does the bloke is always the hero - either an alpha male providing everything so that his wife "doesn't have to work" or a self sacrificing progressive who "allows" his wife to work. A mother's place sure is in the wrong.

Fatgers compared to women - sorry!

I'm not a parent so perhaps I'm not really the right person to respond to this, but I hope to have children one day and have always assumed I'd go back to work. Perhaps not as full time as I am now, but it's what I've seen my parents do and would like to follow the same path. I don't like work but I do like the structure, the social aspect and the financial independence it gives me. Of course I don't know what the future holds and perhaps when the time comes being a SAHM will be more suitable for my family, and that would be fine too.

I don't judge SAHM in general as I everyone's circumstances are different, however I do judge my friend. I wish I didn't, but she's in such a precarious position and she constantly complains about lack of money and not being able to afford things. She has three school age children, is unmarried, her DP pays the bills and she has to provide for the kids with the benefits she gets. Only her name is on the tenancy, so if one day he decided to just stop paying he could, and she'd be in the shit (he has threatened to do this.) She has never worked, has no qualifications, and she once told me that once you've had kids it's impossible to work, which of course isn't true. I honestly think she just doesn't want to work. There is lots written above about SAHMS volunteering, studying, doing a hobby and making the most of the time they have, and that's amazing and why I don't judge SAHMS in general because I don't know their personal life and the reasons why being a SAHM is best for them. But I do know my friend and I know she doesn't do any of those things. Our friendship is quite one sided as she's very limited what she can afford and she doesn't drive, so I'm always the driver, I pay for everything, always take her kids on days out. I don't usually mind doing these things but sometimes it feels I am taken advantage of and it does grate when she complains about her lifestyle but makes no effort to do anything about it. The saddest thing was when her 12 year old DD said that she doesn't ever want to go to college, she just wants to have a baby at 16 instead 😐. I think that shows that the parents attitude to work does affect the child.

MrsAvocet spot on. Bar for a great father is SO low. He 'helps' you with his own kids? What a hero! Stayed home with a sick child - amazing caring father. Doesn't do any of that - he just works so hard to support his family.

Another quote I've just remembered, though I don't know who said it is something like "The problem for working mothers is that too many men expect their wives to undertake all the domestic duties and their female colleagues to do none." I certainly experienced that. When a child was sick we would generally take it in turns to stay at home unless one of us had something particularly important on at work and the other one had a light day. But my husband's colleagues always seemed to expect that I would do it as that was the norm in their families whereas my male colleagues never failed to ask why my DH couldn't care for the poorly child as someone as senior as me shouldn't be taking leave for trivia. 🙄
Sorry, I know I'm going off the original, but it really does seem that women can't win whatever they choose.

I’m a SAHM, and have definitely been judged by others. Some people seem to think I don’t have my own brain or personality

I’d love to work now, and have the standing in society that that brings. But one of our kids became chronically unwell - and even as a young adult - still needs care.

Lucky for me we are married and are ok money wise. But this is thankless, and I’m tired of being looked down on by others.

If I was my son’s paid carer - I’d have a legitimate job, as his mum I have nothing.

And yet, I wouldn’t change it for the world.
Learned to grow a really hard shell and ignore people’s unwelcome opinions.
Everyone’s situation is personal to them, and we should not judge.

@MrsAvocet completely agree with everything you've said. You damned what ever you do so why care what people think. You're always going to be doing wrong in someone's eyes as a mother.