If you're a SAHM, do you feel judged? And if you're a working mum, do you judge a SAHM?

[ItalianRed]

Hi,

So I've been out of work for 15 years, apart from a couple of part time jobs here and there. I have a teenager and so have the time, but for several reasons, I'm not currently working. Financially, I don't need to, but there are other reasons too.

I often see on social media, the debate about SAHMs once dc are in school and if it's lazy or even anti feminist to not go back to work.

A couple of my friends recently dug themselves a hole on separate occasions when talking about a school mum friend who didn't work. One said "what does she actually do all day? Her husband even does the cooking some nights!" And the other said "She must be so bored and feel like she doesn't have a real identity". They were both quick to clumsily back track and say they're not referring to me because I'm obviously different Why? Because I'm their friend? I'm still a woman who chooses not to work and who, shock horror, doesn't cook ever single family meal! 😲

In the past when I've heard similar comments, I'd say don't worry about it, you've not offended me etc, even if they had because I didn't want them to feel awkward or embarrassed, but this last time I just smiled and said nothing. One of them even said that this particular mum is perfectly nice, but she needs to keep her at "arms length", for no other reason that I could see other than she didn't work.

The more I thought about it, the more it pissed me off. They're really judgey, bitchy comments to make. It seems as though if you do choose to be a SAHM, then unless you're constantly scrubbing, cleaning, cooking, volunteering and on various committees, then you're looked down on.

Be interesting to hear your perspectives....

As a sahm I’ve always felt judged by other female family members who work. They also seem to have this perception that I’m not very bright and savvy. It doesn’t bother me, I love staying at home and they are entitled to their opinion. Just because they think it, doesn’t mean it’s right.

I'm very career-minded and one of my best friends is a SAHM. I don't judge her. But I do wonder about her choices. I would never tell her that though.

For example, she's super smart and well educated, had a very interesting career - isn't she bored just cooking, cleaning, looking after children? Yes of course looking after small children is hard work but it's not really intellectually that challenging, or maybe mine were just exceptionally boring. Seems like such a waste of her education, skills and knowledge.

She has said she is never planning to go back to work. Husband is a high earner, they have a nice house and decent savings, but he is exactly the type who will one day leave his wife and children for his 20-year old assistant. Half the assets will not keep her in anywhere near the lifestyle she's accustomed to, and the kinds of jobs she could potentially find with a 10 or 20-year gap on the CV will not help much either.

I'm sure she also wonders about my choices though.

Totally agree Four - why do people assume you've only got interesting things to talk about if you in paid employment? Let's be honest, lots of paid jobs are mind numbingly boring to others unless you are in the same line ... my DB used to work for a very large, well known, interesting company ... his job was incredibly dull and tedious in IT (even he said that) - there was nothing to 'talk about'.

I find that few people actually talk about their job or their children - there are plenty of other subjects to talk about. Of course you do occasionally meet the bore who goes on non-stop about their job / or their children (or worse - both) . Maybe I'm lucky but it's only on Mumsnet that people drone on about how much their baby sleeps, what nursery to choose and if their child is doing well at school. Most of us get on with the interesting things in life.

Theres definitly a few judgy people, but I dont care. I'm a SAHM and I feel very blessed to have this time with my son and to keep my home lovely. Surely it's not anti feminist to allow women and men a choice? A friend of mines hubby is a SAHD and think he gets more raised eyebrows but good on him.

I will go back to work in a few years because we cant afford me to be home for our children whole childhood but if we did have the money I'd stay home a little longer

Really? Oh God, I can't abide listening to the office politics of my friend's workplaces. Jesus, it's insanely boring and I do my friends the courtesy of not inflicting it on them either. Teachers are the worst. Holy hell, if you get a few of them together you may as well excuse yourself, they'll be talking shop all night.

@ScissorsBike

I don't judge them, per se, but I can't imagine what we'd have in common/what we'd talk about. Most of my friends are successful and ambitious like me, and find our careers interesting.

A lot of the posts like this one are very snobby, could you not be friends with a waitress? A cleaner? A supermarket worker? There's so much more to a person than what they do for a living, I find it bizarre that it matters so much to people. I care about whether people are kind, funny, interesting etc rather than what they do for money.

Not exactly the same thing I know, but I've recently taken early retirement on ill health grounds and I've found that a lot of people's attitudes have changed towards me. I do still have older children at home so I guess that technically makes me a SAHM. Previously I was in a professional role with a 6 figure salary. Some people have made really quite nasty comments and others have said more subtle things that still make it clear that they think that someone who is not in paid employment is a lesser being. I've certainly learned who my real friends are, and have learned that a lot of people make assumptions and generalise without knowledge of people's individual circumstances . SAHMs and WOHMs are not homogeneous groups so ridiculous to judge anyone for being either without knowing a lot more.

It depends on the situation. Looking after young kids is a full time job and it often makes sense financially and otherwise for the mum to stay home so no judgement there. If kids are older (secondary school) then I think ‘choosing not to work’ ‘housewife’ is a more accurate description. If your husband can afford to support you and you are happy to risk being financially dependent on him, then you do you. Personally I would find staying home not working really boring, but then again there are lots of jobs I would find boring. I wouldn’t judge a housewife for having really boring days anymore than I would judge someone with an admin role having boring days. However, in general I find myself having more in common with people with interesting careers and most of my friends do, and I love hearing about their work. I find talking to housewives less interesting unless they have a cool hobby or volunteer. I do judge/pity one woman I know who is a housewife (son is 17 and daughter at uni) and likes to moan about how busy she is running after her husband and kid and dog, and complains that money is tight and she’d love to afford a cleaner. It seems like she has a small, uninteresting world and is kidding herself with how busy she is. Maybe she’d be happier if she had a job, but she’s been out of work so long. I’ve had some great experiences in my career that people like her miss. However, if you don’t have a good career and just work a boring job to earn money, then I can see why you’d quit and stay home if you could afford it. So it’s more the lack of interesting career that I judge/pity. My mum had a great career which I always respected growing up and this motivated me to succeed. She was often late picking me up from school and I had to cook dinner and take care of myself quite a bit. It never bothered me, and made me more mature and I always respected that my mum has her own life and that I wasn’t the centre of the universe. I think this was actually a valuable way to grow up, and helped me a lot when I went to uni. I remember some friends at high school had stay at home mums who “helicopter” parented a lot (did their homework with them to the point a 15 year old friend couldn’t do homework without her mum there, and another friends mum followed us home from school to check we were safe on a ten minute walk age 12). These friends struggled more at uni

My work has never been my identity and I have been both a SAHM and a full tine worker at various times so definitely don't judge. I think I would be judging those who do judge. A SAHM who literally does nothing with her time other than watch TV and do housework between school runs wouldnt be my kind of person though.

I don't judge because people generally do what is best for their individual family units at different times in their lives, and I am not someone who thinks that the only valid contribution to family life is economic. Also, of all my friends in various roles, the two most dynamic and interesting and intelligent are both sahms, so I do not understand at all the previous posts about sahps being boring and having narrow boundaries and nothing to talk about. My friends could not be more different to this. They are both impressively intelligent, tenacious, imaginative and hard-working with open and enquiring personalities, and impressive cvs. I think assuming all sahms are boring and passive is a very lazy cliché tbh.

Tbh , I think in today's society, it's now acceptable for wohps to criticize sahps (as evidenced by this thread) but the reverse is not true.

I think a SAHM who has say 4 young children probably does do quite a bit. But after they’re all in school, realistically “SAHM” just means unemployed/ rich enough to not bother/ trophy wife. I might consider it if rich enough, but I think it’s funny when people try to act like it’s “difficult” or “for the children”. At most it’s being a part-them cleaner.

Makes total sense though if you’ve got lots of money, then you’re in the “lady of leisure” category and art/animals/travel/fashion are your life.

I'm a SAHM - I probably have a thick skin but have never felt judged. If anything a few people that are a bit closer and know a bit more have said they wished they were in my position and that they can't afford not to work.
Like most things it depends on the people. On a variety of topics you can hear your friends express an opinion that is surprising and can cause you to question their values - particularly politics can do this. Friendships ebb and flow - and since I accepted that I find it easier to be around people who have very different opinions to me, particularly if they feel strongly enough to keep voicing those opinions...

Onjnmoeiejducwoapy
I think that's harsh because I'd be willing bet that once the children are in school, the dads aren't stepping up to do their fair share if mum goes back to work.
What probably happens is:
Mum looks at going back to work, and that requires wraparound care that's expected to come out of Mum's wages because she chose to go back to work, or Mum has to find a job that fits around 39 weeks a year 9am-3pm (really 9.30am-2.30pm if she has to do pick ups). When the children are unwell, mum has to take the day off. When there is a problem at school such as snow days or burst pipes, mum has to take the day off. If a child needs collecting from school due to illness or injury, mum has to take the day off. When the children have medical or dental appointments, mum has to take the day off. When the school holidays roll round, mum has to cover 13 weeks school holiday on her 5 weeks of annual leave and then sort holiday childcare out as well.
After going to work, mum comes home and is still expected to cook and clean for everyone else because dad has been at work. Then at the weekends dad has to have half a day to himself because he has a big important job, and mum spends the weekend frantically trying to do everything else.

I'm sure there are men who do step up when their wives return to work, but there's enough threads on here that suggest many men think women going back to work means zero change on the domestic front.

I work don't judge those who don't, have had several comments from SAHMs though 'i couldn't possibly have a child for someone else to raise' (1 day at nursery and 1 with Grandma), and 'it really surprises me you're still so career focused now you have DS (snark)' different people. Also several comments from colleagues when I went back full time. surprisingly no one is ever surprised DH hasn't gone part time after having a child.

I don't judge, but I don't think it's wise to ever be financially dependent on a man. If you choose to be a SAHM, make sure that you have your own finances available in the event of a split. Too many women give up their careers and then find themselves up shit creek when the relationship goes to pot.

SAHPs can be just as judgemental about working mums by the way. "Why have kids just to put them in childcare" I hear often.

@ScissorsBike

I don't judge them, per se, but I can't imagine what we'd have in common/what we'd talk about. Most of my friends are successful and ambitious like me, and find our careers interesting.

See, I find that weird. Myself and my friends all work, but we never talk about work. I couldn't imagine anything more dull than discussing work all the time.

If you are a sahm we do have other interests other than our kids and family...

My relative hasn’t worked for decades (children are NT secondary age) and also happens to be quite a judgemental, bossy character about the lives of all within a fifty mile radius. I have to admit this annoys me more than it would if she had more of what I consider to be actual life experience. I also think it’s a really alarming amount of faith to put in a man and not an example I’d want to set to my daughter. Their life looks absolutely perfect from the outside and to be fair there are aspects of it I envy but it all hinges on a rich, good looking man not putting it about behind his wife’s back and frankly I’m too cynical about men in general and rich, good looking ones especially to trust that. Either that or sweeping it under the carpet if he does put it about, which is no life.

I am a stay at home mum and I definitely feel judged for not working. Quite frankly though I couldn't give a hoot what other people think of my situation. I don't need other people to "worry" on my behalf about what should happen if it all goes tits up. I'm quite aware that I may be in a vulnerable position but that's my problem and I am currently happy to take the risk. I've been a sahm for 7 years now and I love it. I have plenty of things to keep me busy, I'm never bored and I definitely contribute in other ways. I've never understood why other people need to judge others because they choose to be a sahp. So what, I don't work. Why does it bother you so much? If I got a part time job in the evenings would that make you feel better? Would me doing that affect your life in anyway? No! So Get on with your own lives and just enjoy what you are doing. As for setting an example to my children. I am a decent person with good manners and morals and they look up to me and respect me despite me not working.

@Waxonwaxoff0 for me personally, it’s not that I discuss work with my friends with jobs all the time (a bit-some of my friends have really cool jobs I like hearing about) it’s more that we have similar hectic lifestyles with kids and work and bond over that. I find that friends that also work are more understanding when I am late/cancel last minute due to work or if they come over and my house is a mess. I have found that the kind of woman who likes working in a career and chooses not to stay at home, is the kind of woman I gravitate towards. Not to say all stay at home mums are dull, but the few women I’ve met that have made this choice are not the kind of women I would end up making friends with. May just be random/I’m basing this on a very small sample size not representative of all women.

I try not to judge but I think we all do, to some extent.
When ds1 was small I was a single wohm and he went to a private nursery. There was a big divide between the wohm and sahm, partly due to pick up times. I made a couple of lifelong friends I still see 16 years later. I definitely found my tribe among the wohm.
I suffered bullying and exclusion from some of the sahm and have never had so little in common with a group of women in my life. Ds was not invited to a whole class party because they didnt want a single mother around their husbands .
Since then I have met many sahm, some of whom have become my friends, but most of my friends are wohm. I think it's because it's easier for them to understand the particular stresses of life with work and children.

I have to be honest. I do wonder what a SAHM does all day, particularly those with older children. Both DH and I have full on finance roles but we love it. I’ve never considered giving it up, much as I adore the DC. When I hear a SAHM lament that she is busy I’d probably role by eyes if I actually had time to!

I was a SAHM for toddler years as I didnt earn enough to make any money after childcare costs. I know a few SAHM (most have NT teens, so no nappies, messy craft, pretend play, toddler tantrums etc) I'll admit I am a bit envious of their free time (and appropriate funds) to do hobbies, gym, meet friends for lunch, go to galleries, shopping etc. I think I would feel guilty doing that if my DH was working ft but if all parties of their households are in agreement, and it works for them, who am I to judge.

The thing is though, it does affect other people’s lives, even if indirectly. You only need to read the relationships board to see how many men suddenly become idle, useless chauvinists after children are born, whose jobs are so important they couldn’t possibly have flexible hours or go part time, or who refused to provide hands on care for babies and want a prize for ‘sitting’ their own kids for an hour. Men are like this because society encourages them to be, and unless there is a huge social shift towards active encouragement of male parenting, nothing will change. Obviously workplaces, campaigns, education etc need to lead this but women who keep choosing to stay at home especially long term are helping enforce the status quo of man = important worker and woman = housewife, and all the attitudes that go with that. SAHDs should not be a radical idea but they still are, and they’re not directly comparable because the homemaker role has never been expected of or forced upon men.