If you're a SAHM, do you feel judged? And if you're a working mum, do you judge a SAHM?

[ItalianRed]

Hi,

So I've been out of work for 15 years, apart from a couple of part time jobs here and there. I have a teenager and so have the time, but for several reasons, I'm not currently working. Financially, I don't need to, but there are other reasons too.

I often see on social media, the debate about SAHMs once dc are in school and if it's lazy or even anti feminist to not go back to work.

A couple of my friends recently dug themselves a hole on separate occasions when talking about a school mum friend who didn't work. One said "what does she actually do all day? Her husband even does the cooking some nights!" And the other said "She must be so bored and feel like she doesn't have a real identity". They were both quick to clumsily back track and say they're not referring to me because I'm obviously different Why? Because I'm their friend? I'm still a woman who chooses not to work and who, shock horror, doesn't cook ever single family meal! 😲

In the past when I've heard similar comments, I'd say don't worry about it, you've not offended me etc, even if they had because I didn't want them to feel awkward or embarrassed, but this last time I just smiled and said nothing. One of them even said that this particular mum is perfectly nice, but she needs to keep her at "arms length", for no other reason that I could see other than she didn't work.

The more I thought about it, the more it pissed me off. They're really judgey, bitchy comments to make. It seems as though if you do choose to be a SAHM, then unless you're constantly scrubbing, cleaning, cooking, volunteering and on various committees, then you're looked down on.

Be interesting to hear your perspectives....

I genuinely don't see how it's fair and equitable that one half of the partnership gets up every morning and goes to earn the family's income while the other chooses not to

It’s not always a unilateral choice, though. People I know in this position (as I said upthread) took that decision jointly, because they decided two “big jobs” wasn’t what they wanted for their family. So it’s done - and continues - as a partnership. (Different matter, I agree, if circumstances change/redundancy hits or whatever (as per the example you gave))

What I struggle with most is equality. When children are small, I understand the decision for one parent to stay home and the other work. But when children are older and at school, I genuinely don't see how it's fair and equitable that one half of the partnership gets up every morning and goes to earn the family's income while the other chooses not to - this doesn't seem like a true partnership.

I don't think many couples have a completely even split when both work. Most couples I know have one who works more hours and one who works less hours but does the vast proportion of childcare and domestic chores.
My husband works away all week, so me taking care of all the home responsibilities Mon-Fri and not working feels fairer to both of us than me working as well as doing everything else.

Op, I’ve had similar things said to me.

I’ve both worked and been a SAHM.
Currently I’m at home caring for me seriously ill child. I feel undervalued from others. Not my husband as he often says he couldn’t do what he does to provide, without my support. It’s a team game.
But his family CONSTANTLY ask me what I do all day. Or do I get bored. I used to just smile but now I reply with ‘walk a day in my shoes and answer it yourself!’
They make me feel rubbish about myself. My mil has even asked me if I’m grateful for everything dh has provided for me!!
It’s hideous!!

But despite all of this, I wouldn’t change a thing. I just stay away from the people who evidently have low respect for my life choices

not working feels fairer to both of us than me working as well as doing everything else.

Yes sure and when children are small, being home with them is certainly more than a full time job. But whenever someone asks what SAHMs with school aged children do, there will be a long list of 'whatever we want! Coffee, gym, walks, hobbies, reading..'
You can see several posts like that on this thread as well.

If DH (young and no health issues) came one day and said that he wants to quit his job and spend his days taking long leisurely walks and reading books, I also wouldn't consider it an entirely fair contribution.

What I struggle with most is equality. When children are small, I understand the decision for one parent to stay home and the other work. But when children are older and at school, I genuinely don't see how it's fair and equitable that one half of the partnership gets up every morning and goes to earn the family's income while the other chooses not to. If a man decided he'd rather not earn a wage, and a woman had no choice but to carry on earning to support the family, we'd be outraged.

Me and DH have wondered this about some couples we know - the DH works, the DW is a SAHM of NT teens and outsources cleaning, ironing etc. DH said he would really resent it if he was working FT, all day and I was shopping (as in retail therapy, not supermarket!) going to the gym, going out for lunch etc
But we cant assume that a man had no choice? It wouldnt be my choice and it def wouldnt be DH choice, but presumably the couples who do this have agreed their family set up, and everyone is ok with it.

I completely get that 2 parents regularly working say a 50 hour week with long commutes or frequent travel doesnt fit easily with children but I'm not convinced it's not possible to fit any job in, especially once DC are past primary age.

Ive come to the conclusion a lot of alpha male types who earn enough to support a housewife of NT teens with cleaners and so on are very driven to do what suites them and what their wife does is fairly inconsequential to their wellbeing so she may as well please herself.

I think it can actually come from jealousy. My DP doesn't earn enough for me to be a SAHM when we have kids and I'd dearly love to be one when they're under 5 or still quite little. I'm really envious of SAHMs!

Yes sure if one partner earns 7 figures just in bonuses and the other partner could only earn minimum wage then it won't make much of a difference anyway. For most families, extra 50-30-20% income would make quite a difference though, no?

I genuinely don't see how it's fair and equitable that one half of the partnership gets up every morning and goes to earn the family's income while the other chooses not to - this doesn't seem like a true partnership

It wouldn’t to me either. Not working means no pressure, no deadlines, no management to answer to just freedom to come and go and do as you please. I’d not want a partner that did that whilst I had to shoulder the entire financial burden alone. Any gift they bought me I would have actually just paid for myself.

For me a partnership is sharing everything so we both work to finance our lives, we both look after the house and we both get family time not just one. I have never subscribed to the theory of men work and women don’t though and wouldn’t want my children to think that was the case.

I don't judge, personal choice, but no moaning if you have to get a minimum wage job if your dh leaves you - happened to me (I thankfully worked pt). My dd has asd so I had that to contend with

G5000 - have you ever asked your sahm friends about their lives though??

It’s this assumption that if a woman doesn’t work, they have nothing beneficial to give to a conversation, that I despise!!
When we as a couple go to a dinner party or similar, the first thing a stranger will ask is ‘hello, and what do you do?’ When I say ‘I’m a mum’. They look blankly and say ‘ohh’. Then they turn and walk away!!

It’s a very hierarchy way of looking at the world

have you ever asked your sahm friends about their lives though??

Of course I have, where did I say I haven't and I would have literally nothing to talk about? One of my best friends is a SAHM, exactly the type who is never planning to go back to work. We can talk for hours.
But there are aspects of my life she can't quite relate to, as they simply don't figure in hers.

When we as a couple go to a dinner party or similar, the first thing a stranger will ask is ‘hello, and what do you do?’ When I say ‘I’m a mum’. They look blankly and say ‘ohh’.

Well I'm a mum too. Could it be that some more sensitive people hear 'I'm a mum!' as a dig, like it's a full time occupation and they can therefore only be part time mothers? Maybe that's the reason for the blank stare?

It’s usually a man asking. As the kind of events we go to are through DH’s work which is heavily male dominated.

It’s my own insecurities probably. A feeling of not having ‘achieved’ in the same way a working mum has.

Strangely I worked prior to children and then dotted in between too. I adored working, and the feeling or worth it gave me. But I didn’t enjoy the imbalance of additional jobs needing to be done around the house etc, that heavily tilted in my direction to do!

G500 and Flossie44, actually I'm always asking my non-working close friend about her day, her life, her children, and the various things that interest her or challenge her. We talk about the concerns she has about one of her children's health, her parents, the paint colours for her kitchen, a recipe we've both cooked, a trip we might take, a great book we've read or something we heard on a podcast. We discuss a lot about her life but we don't discuss the stuff that is most meaningful to me - how to ride out the pandemic, how to manage my team, how to meet a deadline while also juggling the needs of three children. I don't share my worries for my business and how fearful I am for the future. I don't celebrate the successes and the triumphs when we win new business or a new project goes perfectly to plan.

I am enormously involved in her life even down to her children's favourite meals and her favourite flowers, but I hold some of the most important elements back from her because she's said before that she just don't get it. And hearing 'I don't know how you do it' isn't helpful when I feel like I'm about to break.

G500 yep, you've hit the nail on the head. Explaining to my friend some of the detail of what I do would be like someone trying to explain the intricacies of a Formula 1 engine - I'd smile and nod but it would be wasted on me!

Flossie so sorry to hear about your ill child. I so hope that they are doing as well as they can. I can only imagine the relentless pressure you must feel under right now.

Its interesting how many people are SAHM in "supporting roles" because their DH works 80 hour weeks and travels frequently, and of course if 2 parents did that, neither of them would get much time with their children.
But why are so many jobs ft (often way more than standard FT) or nothing?
I remember one of the first people to go back to work in my ante natal group was a lawyer and she went back FT "because you can't do it PT"
Ditto 2 friends who are SAHM are accountants and both said they didn't go back FT because "it wasn't possible to do PT"
I know a couple who are GPs. when they had kids they both went PT.No one batted an eyelid that the woman opted for PT but the husband was almost frowned upon!
Am I missing something here? Why is it not possible to be a PT in lots of carrers?

I don’t judge at all. Maybe before I had kids when I was younger (and naive!) I may have thought along the lines of “what do they do all day?” But I really don’t think that any more. Running a household and having kids is a very hard job! I’m a full time working mom and I must admit I do like having my own work identity that is separate to being a mother but I also enjoy my job and realise that not everyone does.

@fizbosshoes I’m a solicitor and it would be really difficult to work part time (possible, but difficult).

Depending on what area you practice as well. If it is something like Wills and Probate which is administrative by process/nature that would be manageable I would think. But with something complex or litigious that can move very fast in some instances or conveyancing, where you really need to know the file it would be difficult to keep up or for someone else to cover your work during your days off, they would have to know the detailed complex files to your level to be any use to you. I think a job share where you literally shared the exact same caseload could work with a great relationship and communication.

LeopardPrintKnickers - you sound such a caring friend. So involved with your friend. It’s sad you don’t feel that she gives anything back. You deserve the care in return

My mil has even asked me if I’m grateful for everything dh has provided for me!!
It’s hideous!!

Flossie I feel for you, because my MIL used to do this when my dc were little. The fact that Dh does all the cooking (he wants to - he enjoys it) made it worse. It was constantly being pointed out to me that SIL had gone back to work FT when her dc was three months old; which to be fair was the norm in their country where childcare was heavily subsidised by the government. SIL got quite snotty with me at family get

Then my dniece fell off her high chair at nursery whilst unsupervised, and injured herself. SIL immediately sold her business and became a sahm in a rush of guilt. Her snotty comments stopped.

MIL switched to mentioning how amazing my other SIL was, juggling three preschoolers and a full time job. Until that SIL had a nervous breakdown from the pressure.

The judgement has stopped now.

@fizbossshoes it’s more efficient for the company to have someone FT than PT. workers all come with overheads (training, desks, insurance, laptops, maternity liability, etc) so it’s cheaper to have one worker than two.

Also a team made up of PT workers generally works less efficiently than one where everyone is in the office every day. I used to work in a job where more than half my colleagues were PT and it was a nightmare. Organising meetings on days when everyone was in was like the world’s worst Venn diagram, and when my managers were out I’d get slowed down by having to wait for them for approvals, input etc. When my junior colleagues were out I’d end up picking up their work.

If you do client work (like the lawyer) you can’t expect your colleagues to look after your clients on days off.

not working feels fairer to both of us than me working as well as doing everything else.

Yes sure and when children are small, being home with them is certainly more than a full time job. But whenever someone asks what SAHMs with school aged children do, there will be a long list of 'whatever we want! Coffee, gym, walks, hobbies, reading..'
You can see several posts like that on this thread as well.

I was referring to my personal circumstances. DH's job requires him to work away, so our set up is never going to be equal because he isn't here to pick the children up, cook, clean etc. For us it's been case of doing what makes us both happiest. He loves his current job and I love staying at home. Before his promotion we were both working, both at home every night and both knackered and unhappy.

If DH (young and no health issues) came one day and said that he wants to quit his job and spend his days taking long leisurely walks and reading books, I also wouldn't consider it an entirely fair contribution.
This isn't what happens though in the vast majority of cases. For us it's been a mutual decision and we've reviewed it regularly. We couldn't be happier with the way things are, and I don't know why some people are so against that. Basically don't we all just want a happy life?

@Flossie44

G5000 - have you ever asked your sahm friends about their lives though??

It’s this assumption that if a woman doesn’t work, they have nothing beneficial to give to a conversation, that I despise!!
When we as a couple go to a dinner party or similar, the first thing a stranger will ask is ‘hello, and what do you do?’ When I say ‘I’m a mum’. They look blankly and say ‘ohh’. Then they turn and walk away!!

It’s a very hierarchy way of looking at the world

Oh gosh I think I do this too. I will try not to, this must be upsetting especially if you’re home with a sick child.

I think it’s because I just don’t know how to engage or what to ask next. ‘How old are your children’ feels like such a boring question. ‘What are your hobbies’ feels insulting. Sometimes I’ve gone with ‘what did you do before’ which is maybe even worse??