If you're a SAHM, do you feel judged? And if you're a working mum, do you judge a SAHM?

[ItalianRed]

Hi,

So I've been out of work for 15 years, apart from a couple of part time jobs here and there. I have a teenager and so have the time, but for several reasons, I'm not currently working. Financially, I don't need to, but there are other reasons too.

I often see on social media, the debate about SAHMs once dc are in school and if it's lazy or even anti feminist to not go back to work.

A couple of my friends recently dug themselves a hole on separate occasions when talking about a school mum friend who didn't work. One said "what does she actually do all day? Her husband even does the cooking some nights!" And the other said "She must be so bored and feel like she doesn't have a real identity". They were both quick to clumsily back track and say they're not referring to me because I'm obviously different Why? Because I'm their friend? I'm still a woman who chooses not to work and who, shock horror, doesn't cook ever single family meal! 😲

In the past when I've heard similar comments, I'd say don't worry about it, you've not offended me etc, even if they had because I didn't want them to feel awkward or embarrassed, but this last time I just smiled and said nothing. One of them even said that this particular mum is perfectly nice, but she needs to keep her at "arms length", for no other reason that I could see other than she didn't work.

The more I thought about it, the more it pissed me off. They're really judgey, bitchy comments to make. It seems as though if you do choose to be a SAHM, then unless you're constantly scrubbing, cleaning, cooking, volunteering and on various committees, then you're looked down on.

Be interesting to hear your perspectives....

@OrangeSamphire

I’ve been thinking about this more and I think I do judge SAHMs because:

• I can’t imagine wasting my intellectual and creative abilities on stretching out household drudgery to fill the days

• As long as there are women who choose not to work, create or contribute to society in meaningful ways, we are perpetuating gender inequality. Staying at home to cook and iron shirts because ‘husband has a high flying career’ makes me feel nauseous for the future of our daughters.

@OrangeSamphire I think this second point is absolutely right. & I wonder if this is where the judgement of SAHM comes from? Because it does seem very intense.

In many ways, I feel that we owe it to younger generations of women to prove that women can be leadership material, and that we aren’t 50% likely to opt out halfway through our careers. I sometimes feel that those who make that choice reflect poorly on me and my commitment to my career & organisation.

I think that’s where my discomfort with SAHMs comes from, rather than finding them lazy (which I don’t.)

@Devlesko

I never understand these threads.

If you have to/ want to work, that's fine.
If you don't have to/ don't want to, then don't.

There really is nothing more to say, you can argue who has it harder, but I prefer to keep my life simple and do as I please. Life shouldn't be an endless set of chores, enjoy yourselves it's later than you think.

You're constantly insulting working mothers and other "sheeple".

@snowcobra do you try to introduce more interesting topics of conversation with your SAHM friends?

I can't say the conversations I have with my fellow SAHM friends and my friends who work differ much at all.
Yes we may talk about the DCs but surely all parents to that?

We also talk about books we've read , TV shows we're enjoying , holidays and travel , politics , stuff in the news , restaurants/ wine and gins we've tried.

It's usually very rare that anyone talks about work unless they are having a particular problem that they want to sound off about although at the moment we might discuss or ask how Covid is affecting things.

@captpike

Hardly, I've been a working mum myself. Yes, I do think people who follow without their own thoughts are a bit weak and pathetic actually. Fine if you think something through and follow.

[quote Devlesko]@captpike

Hardly, I've been a working mum myself. Yes, I do think people who follow without their own thoughts are a bit weak and pathetic actually. Fine if you think something through and follow.[/quote]
And yet you harp on about not judging...

[quote Devlesko]@captpike

Hardly, I've been a working mum myself. Yes, I do think people who follow without their own thoughts are a bit weak and pathetic actually. Fine if you think something through and follow.[/quote]
I've seen your posts and you are judgey. You've made comments about two incomes being unnecessary and that because you can survive on one income everyone else should be able to as well.

I'm not sure how that is judgy, and yes everyone else could live on one income if they wanted to, that's not reserved for me and my family. Many don't want to, isn't it good that life has such diversity.

@Devlesko

I'm not sure how that is judgy, and yes everyone else could live on one income if they wanted to, that's not reserved for me and my family. Many don't want to, isn't it good that life has such diversity.

You are judgey, because I've seen you make negative comments about 2 working parents wanting "luxuries" and you've criticised people who work far away from their children's school.

@Devlesko

I'm not sure how that is judgy, and yes everyone else could live on one income if they wanted to, that's not reserved for me and my family. Many don't want to, isn't it good that life has such diversity.

No the couldn't.

@AngelsWithSilverWings I think it depends what kind of work people do. I have friends who are doctors and I love hearing funny stories about their work. I also have friends who work in international trade & criminal law which I find fascinating. Some of them travel a lot for work, some of them have founded start ups. It helps me learn about new things, it’s not all bad boss stories.

Of course SAHMs can have interests outside of children, and some working people might have no interest at all! But I’ve tended to find that many SAHMs’ lives revolve around kids only- and it may be that the causation goes the other way (ie, they chose to be SAHMs because their primary interest is children.)

People can make negative comments all they like, I have a dh we have both worked at times, 1 working parent +1 working parent = 2 working parents.

@Devlesko

People can make negative comments all they like, I have a dh we have both worked at times, 1 working parent +1 working parent = 2 working parents.

Of course they can. But don't pretend that you're not judgey when you are.

I'm not sure how that is judgy, and yes everyone else could live on one income if they wanted to, that's not reserved for me and my family. confused Many don't want to, isn't it good that life has such diversity.

I'm not sure how you can state with such certainty that everyone could live on 1 wage if they wanted to...
Everyones wage potential, size of family and living expenses will differ massively.

@fizbosshoes

I'm not sure how that is judgy, and yes everyone else could live on one income if they wanted to, that's not reserved for me and my family. confused Many don't want to, isn't it good that life has such diversity.

I'm not sure how you can state with such certainty that everyone could live on 1 wage if they wanted to...
Everyones wage potential, size of family and living expenses will differ massively.

Of course, circumstances make a huge difference, but they can be changed if you want to. Unless you think this is only available for a few select people You make your choices, that's what life is about, choices.

Am I judgy? Hmmmm possibly? I mean I mostly judge how short sighted it is, not whether it's right or wrong.

Short sighted because I've had enough family members and friends get totally screwed over through divorce etc when they don't work. Then they have found it hard to get back into work. I think working and keeping your hand in gives you more options if you change your mind as you age. Not working seems to cut off all options. I have a friend who was perfectly happy not working but then she changed her mind and found it impossible to get back into her field. She was so depressed for such a long time.

By all means people should do what makes them happy but I do think that you limit your choices later. Not really my problem though

@TownTalkJewels I've got friends with all sorts of interesting /important jobs and yet they still mainly chat about non work stuff. Same when we meet up in couples - the men chat about football , TV , music and all the same stuff us women are talking about - very rarely about their work apart from a a quick how are things? How's work?

I worked for 20 years in banking and the last thing I wanted to talk about on a night out or lunch with friends was work.

My good friends will usually ask me how the kids and DH are , how's my photography ( hobby) going , ask how my holiday was/ anything planned , ask after any mutual friends , ask if I've seen X on Netflix , been to any good gigs lately , ask if I'm still running/ going to the gym , and the conversation flows from there.

I ask them the same sort of questions but will probably throw in a quick "how's work?" once I've asked after the family. I really don't think me not having a job takes anything away from the quality of our conversations.

As long as there are women who choose not to work, create or contribute to society in meaningful ways, we are perpetuating gender inequality. Staying at home to cook and iron shirts because ‘husband has a high flying career’ makes me feel nauseous for the future of our daughters.

Isn't the male idea that the only way to contribute to society is by earning and that there is no value in domestic work and childcare has lead to inequality and women being undervalued. I don't see how women perpetuating that idea it is helpful for our daughters at all.

@Twobrews

As long as there are women who choose not to work, create or contribute to society in meaningful ways, we are perpetuating gender inequality. Staying at home to cook and iron shirts because ‘husband has a high flying career’ makes me feel nauseous for the future of our daughters.

Isn't the male idea that the only way to contribute to society is by earning and that there is no value in domestic work and childcare has lead to inequality and women being undervalued. I don't see how women perpetuating that idea it is helpful for our daughters at all.

You don't need a job to contribute to society in meaningful ways, and I think it's a bit narrow minded to make assumptions about what a lot of women without a job do with their time. When I'm at home I can assure you there's no gym visits, coffee with friends or drudgery, and childcare should be shared if the child has two parents. I think it's helpful to our daughters as it's opening their eyes to their choices. They'll have friends parents who do all sorts of different things too, with many different set ups.

As long as there are women who choose not to work, create or contribute to society in meaningful ways, we are perpetuating gender inequality. Staying at home to cook and iron shirts because ‘husband has a high flying career’ makes me feel nauseous for the future of our daughters
So the solution to inequality is for women to leave the home, enter the workforce and then pay someone else (usually a woman) to do all the domestic and childcare duties?

Wouldn't it not be better to value domestic and childcare responsibilities and have more men share parental leave, more men request flexible working, more men pull their weight around the home? If being part time or staying at home is truly valued then it shouldn't matter who stays home.

The @organisedhousewife has nearly £12k followers on Instagram. I wonder who the people are who have the time to follow and take part in all of her methods. It baffles me, it really does but it must be what some SAHMs do with their days.

We all have a choice in how we choose to live our lives, but that seems like a poor one from both a personal and a societal point of view, if we agree that reaching gender equality is important.

@Twobrews

As long as there are women who choose not to work, create or contribute to society in meaningful ways, we are perpetuating gender inequality. Staying at home to cook and iron shirts because ‘husband has a high flying career’ makes me feel nauseous for the future of our daughters.

Isn't the male idea that the only way to contribute to society is by earning and that there is no value in domestic work and childcare has lead to inequality and women being undervalued. I don't see how women perpetuating that idea it is helpful for our daughters at all.

There definitely is value in domestic work, SAHMs do contribute economically to society in that they enable their partners to work more & earn more than they would have otherwise. I agree that often gets missed.

But still, it’s a support role in terms of economic contribution. I want my daughter to see herself in a lead role, not a support role.

@LolaSmiles yes that would be great, but all of us would need to be willing to earn less in order to pay for that flexibility across 100% of the workforce, and I don’t think that’s something that’s going to happen.

Honestly? Though I'd never, ever say anything, I do judge SAHPs of older kids, when they are clearly highly capable with lots to give to the world, but choose not to work. I'd include substantial voluntary work in that, or even creative endeavours that don't really bring in much money. And there are obvious exceptions for people with unusual caring responsibilities. It's not that I think they are bad people, but I don't quite "get" them and feel they are unlikely to become close friends.

TownTalkJewels
I see, so instead of meaningful change that would bring about greater equality, the women further up the economic food chain should rely on paying someone else a low wage to do the domestic/childcare responsibilities (usually a woman btw because jobs associated with women, domestic jobs and childcare are overwhelmingly done by women and pay less).
What to these women in lower paid domestic jobs do then for their childcare and their domestic duties? Who do they outsource it to?

The problem of presenting get all the women out to work as a solution for greater equality is that it still shafts women, because it will be women at the bottom of the economic pile facilitating it all. It won't be men signing up for all the childcare and domestic jobs. Ignoring this is just another case of feminism being concerned with the middle classes and ignoring the impact on women.

If men did their fair share instead of expecting the women in their lives to facilitate their careers, were willing to go part time, wlrk flexibly be SAHDs, and domestic/childcare roles were valued then things would be a lot better, but that would require meaningful change.

I also quietly judge some people for the type of paid work they do. In some cases not working would be better. I'm clearly very judgemental!