If you're a SAHM, do you feel judged? And if you're a working mum, do you judge a SAHM?

[ItalianRed]

Hi,

So I've been out of work for 15 years, apart from a couple of part time jobs here and there. I have a teenager and so have the time, but for several reasons, I'm not currently working. Financially, I don't need to, but there are other reasons too.

I often see on social media, the debate about SAHMs once dc are in school and if it's lazy or even anti feminist to not go back to work.

A couple of my friends recently dug themselves a hole on separate occasions when talking about a school mum friend who didn't work. One said "what does she actually do all day? Her husband even does the cooking some nights!" And the other said "She must be so bored and feel like she doesn't have a real identity". They were both quick to clumsily back track and say they're not referring to me because I'm obviously different Why? Because I'm their friend? I'm still a woman who chooses not to work and who, shock horror, doesn't cook ever single family meal! 😲

In the past when I've heard similar comments, I'd say don't worry about it, you've not offended me etc, even if they had because I didn't want them to feel awkward or embarrassed, but this last time I just smiled and said nothing. One of them even said that this particular mum is perfectly nice, but she needs to keep her at "arms length", for no other reason that I could see other than she didn't work.

The more I thought about it, the more it pissed me off. They're really judgey, bitchy comments to make. It seems as though if you do choose to be a SAHM, then unless you're constantly scrubbing, cleaning, cooking, volunteering and on various committees, then you're looked down on.

Be interesting to hear your perspectives....

@irregularegular

I also quietly judge some people for the type of paid work they do. In some cases not working would be better. I'm clearly very judgemental!

What kind of job do you think is worse than not working?

@LolaSmiles

As long as there are women who choose not to work, create or contribute to society in meaningful ways, we are perpetuating gender inequality. Staying at home to cook and iron shirts because ‘husband has a high flying career’ makes me feel nauseous for the future of our daughters So the solution to inequality is for women to leave the home, enter the workforce and then pay someone else (usually a woman) to do all the domestic and childcare duties?

Wouldn't it not be better to value domestic and childcare responsibilities and have more men share parental leave, more men request flexible working, more men pull their weight around the home? If being part time or staying at home is truly valued then it shouldn't matter who stays home.

I totally agree with this point. I often say on these threads that we are going backwards ito equality. Now before I get bashed for not liking childcare, I think this is one of the problems. Before there were so many nurseries and options for childcare we expected more from our partners, as there wasn't much alternative. Going back to the 80's and 90's they were considered abnormal to not take an equal share. Perhaps not quite there with the domestics but better than the men you read about on here. Plus the sahm wasn't villified like today, and it was more common due to lack of childcare. I'm not saying childcare is wrong but perhaps the reason men don't do more and women don't expect them to.

Before there were so many nurseries and options for childcare we expected more from our partners, as there wasn't much alternative.
Going back to the 80's and 90's they were considered abnormal to not take an equal share.

Is that true? I don’t think so.

The @organisedhousewife has nearly £12k followers on Instagram. I wonder who the people are who have the time to follow and take part in all of her methods. It baffles me, it really does but it must be what some SAHMs do with their days.

Do you mean the successful working mother Gemma Bray AKA The Organised Mum who's methods advocate spending less time on housework and who actively encourages sharing domestic responsibility?
Or equally successful Katrina Springer who also aims to make organising the household easier.
Both seem to be beneficial to just as many working parents as stay at home parents.
Both have lots more than 12k followers though.

@LolaSmiles I think you’re totally right. I would like to see that situation. But it’s about choice- women are often willing to make the choice to sacrifice their careers, or to work in lower-paying ones, and men aren’t.

Maybe if women weren’t as willing to make those choices, the men would need to step up.

Wouldn't it not be better to value domestic and childcare responsibilities and have more men share parental leave, more men request flexible working, more men pull their weight around the home?

In the UK it is still pretty much assumed that first, as a woman, you will go for a nice little child-friendly career to start with, and then continue working part time around childcare that is otherwise unaffordable. That of course means that in case someone needs to take time off, it's the one who is working the little part time job anyway, and not the main earner. But if incomes were more equal and women's jobs were not considered optional extra that you can squeeze in between ironing?

Use it or lose it paternity leave would be a great start.

I work full time, my husband is the SAHP.

I frequently feel we are judged for the general set up and me for not being at home (people assume I don't like my children!)

@Twobrews I said ‘work, create or contribute to society in meaningful ways’. That doesn’t imply paid employment only.

What kind of job do you think is worse than not working?

For example, I have a friend/acquantance who works very long hours and is away much of the time working for British American Tobacco. Selling tobacco to growing markets in poorer countries basically.

@user1471530109

I haven't ready the thread and I can see this is something that has caused lots of controversy by the many posts.

I'm a full time working mum and have no choice over that. I suppose at times I've been jealous of those who can stay at home. Even when I was married, I couldn't have not gone back to work because of the life style we had become used to. I don't mean socialising or anything, but we bought a house young and our mortgage needed both our salaries.
Now I'm divorced I definitely don't have a choice . But actually, if I hadn't had made those choices when they were babies, I wouldn't have my own home now and be able to support myself and have a fairly comfortable life.

I've had many a snide remark over the years. Including the 'why have children if they are going to strangers all day'. How fucking insulting! And to my face too! How the hell did you think I would react? You seemed shocked! .

The only time I've judged a sahm (and I live in an area where many of my friends are lucky enough to have the lifestyle that allows them a v comfortable life as a sahm and I genuinely have become close to them and honestly don't judge despite what I'm about to say) is when she bleats to me as to how busy she is and how she needs her perfectly wonderful hands on partner to do more. Read the room, love! This woman (in fact, more than one) has said this more than once and I don't know how I haven't lost my shit. Surely my face at the time says it all!

Oh, the other one that pisses me off is 'full-time mummy'. What am I? Part time? Am I only a mum when I'm with my children?!

I've been shielding so there has been a massive change of routine (I'm working from home). It has made a difference to my DC to be able to collect them from school instead of them doing after-school club. I'd love to be able to do that. I can deft see the appeal from the other side. There honestly can't be the option for most people nowadays though. Not unless you were relying on benefits or had a particularly well off partner. I will be advising my own girls not to be sahm. But I'd wish for them to be able to be part time for a few years. I'd have loved to be able to afford to do this.

But does the fact that the perfectly lovely hands on partner works mean that he gets to make toast and leave butter and jam smeared everywhere, knife on the side, plate on the floor, worktop covered in crumbs, or shave and leave the sink covered in hair, step out of his clothes and leave them scattered across the floor, come in and leave a trail of possessions rather than putting them where they belong? All with the expectation that the SAHM will deal with it. I’ve been a sahm twice and although perfectly happy for the housework and laundry to be my responsibility I did not think it was up to me to have to constantly be picking up after everyone else in the family. And yes I did want my then husband to step up and do more- as in clear up his own mess. And it was bloody knackering to be constantly clearing up after a grown adult who refused to because “I’ve been at work all day”. Even more grating when I’d had broken nights, got up with toddlers for the day over 2 hours earlier than him and was still having to clean up long after he’d sat down watching tv in the evening.

You just don’t know what other people are dealing with.

I’ve worked full time with two children in childcare, worked full time but over 3 long days with two at school and one in childcare, been a sahm, worked part time, worked from home, worked out of the home. All have challenges and all can be tiring. There are so many different factors that can affect how hard or easy it is 🤷🏻‍♀️

[quote OrangeSamphire]@Twobrews I said ‘work, create or contribute to society in meaningful ways’. That doesn’t imply paid employment only.[/quote]
What a relief. So my voluntary work will offset the fact I do all the cooking and ironing and you can stop feeling sick for my daughter?

It would never occur to me to question the minutiae of how other households split the division of their paid and domestic labour. Or to fathom why they would then seek validation for their personal choices online. You never see blokes do this: with the good reason that with their masculine privilege they've never needed to worry about whether Nigel at number 54 is sitting on his bum watching daytime TV all day AND has a nanny! Occupying the position of overwhelming economic privilege means they can just crack on. That, I can envy.

The only move I don't find particularly smart is if both partners have full-time careers and one partner bears the entirety of the housework and childcare on top. But again, there are reasons people might end up in that position contrary to their earlier intentions. Some women - and it is nearly always women - end up in this position despite agreements to the contrary when they started out.

As far as I'm concerned women's time and energy is not less valuable than men's nor our professions less important. To me, the above would be a serious enough issue to consider it a dealbreaker.

@MiddleParking

*Before there were so many nurseries and options for childcare we expected more from our partners, as there wasn't much alternative. Going back to the 80's and 90's they were considered abnormal to not take an equal share.*

Is that true? I don’t think so.

From my observation. I know mil's who would make sure their son's were doing their bit, and all the books we read focussed on "new man" He was hands on and rolled up his sleeves when he got home. I'm not suggesting every man was like this, but it was expected whereas today the norm is the opposite. There wasn't the same amount of childcare so more women were sahm's. It's great that we have more choice now, but men always know there's an alternative and fewer are stepping up. What I've noticed anyway.

Feminists judging women who don’t meet their standards?! Well, I never.

I know it's hard for you to get your head around, devlesko, but your experience is not universal.

@Captpike

I know it's hard for you to get your head around, devlesko, but your experience is not universal.

Still not able to read I see, or concontrate to the end of a post? Maybe, you'll get your head around that one day.

You have spectacularly missed my point @Gice. I am a single mum working full time to two DC, one of which has extra needs. No matter how much bloody mess her partner was leaving, she still had someone there to be able to share the load of parenting (even if the share was tiny) I still have to pick up after my kids and me. I am v messy. I agree no one knows anyone elses lives behind closed doors. But she knew exactly what I had to deal with (she lives nextdoor and hears my DC's meltdowns) and she was insensitive. But even if she didn't. It's clearly self absorbed to tell a single working mother that you're busy as a sahm. I don't care how many crumbs or pants you have to wipe/pick up! Do you not think I don't have to do that? I've had the useless 'h' that does fuck all around the house. I was working full-time then too thankfully. I'd be in right shit now without my job and having to support two DC with minimum maintenance.

I couldn't care less what choices you make. We all do what we think is best for our families. You can surely see her comments were insensitive and quite laughable given the differences in our circumstances?!

I'm really boring when talking about my job. I judge that when others do it too, more so if they moan about how much they hate their job, but never apply for anything else.

I did feel judged as a SAHM, I think it's partly people wanting to know if you are extremely rich/ or extremely poor. Very few SAHM's around here, mainly only childminders at things. Obviously some part timers, I found that quite shocking how many people I assumed were SAHM, but actually worked part time. I only met 2 other full time SAHM past age 1, when I was doing it. Oh also judged if you don't work and dare to send your child to preschool.

I work from home now and so I rock the school run in jeans. I think most people assume I'm still a SAHM and so I still feel the judgement. The head stands outside school and says things like ohhh bet you can't wait to go home and put your feet up. I don't know, she seems nice enough, it's a very good school mostly, but are we too thick to work?

I can read well enough to see you claim that because you can make a living as travelling musician's or whatever, that everyone without exception can have one parent stay at home and that the only reason not to is greedy materialism, as well as making sweeping statements about the state of childcare in the 90s based on your limited experience. The idea that other people have other experiences and circumstances just seems to fly over your head @Devlesko.

Ok @user143677433 but you didn’t actually say any of that in the post I quoted. Your friend may already know all of that but I didn’t and was replying to what you posted. Of course it’s different having someone to share the load and taking care of things financially, I didn’t deny that. I was just pointing out that SAHMs can still be tired and that it’s not always unreasonable of them to moan that their partner does nothing. Being a sahm doesn’t make you a slave!

I may not have given all that detail. But I said I was divorced and working full-time with two DC. Which is my main issue with what she said .
Every working mum knows how hard it is being at home with the kids. We do have weekends and holidays! But once past 5yrs, they are in school 6 hours. I know someone will have an exception to what I'm about to say, but surely you can't be saying being a sahm to school age children is in any way harder than working out the house to school age children? All the housework you do in those hours when they are in school, I have to do too. In fact whatever you say you have to do in those 6 hours, I more than likely have to do in my week too. During lockdown I've been working full-time and teaching my own two. We all have a crappy time at times. I think it's human nature to think you've got it tough . I think some of you need a bit of empathy and to put things in perspective.

I think it's unrealistic to expect women to make decisions for feminism's sake rather than what is best for them at the time. By all means look at the structures and cultural norms which make giving up a work an easier choice but no one is going to do something they don't want to do to prove a point for the sisterhood.

I'm loving how many posts start with 'I don't judge other people, but...'

I'm afraid I do judge some of the people I know, and I'm self-aware enough to know it comes from a place of envy at times, but also from a place of concern and bewilderment.

What I struggle with most is equality. When children are small, I understand the decision for one parent to stay home and the other work. But when children are older and at school, I genuinely don't see how it's fair and equitable that one half of the partnership gets up every morning and goes to earn the family's income while the other chooses not to - this doesn't seem like a true partnership.

A friend locally, by her own admission, spends the time her kids are at school on long runs, at gym classes, meeting friends for lunch/coffee, watching boxsets and has a bloody lovely time - her words! Housework is divvied up at the weekends and her husband cooks. However her husband was made redundant recently and has taken a job that pays significantly less so he is now looking for a second job in order to top up his pay. I don't know if they've had a conversation about her getting a job, but she's adamant she won't be working.

My best friend meanwhile hasn't worked for more than 12 years and if I'm honest, our very different day-to-day lives does cause a gap in our friendship. I run a business so work can be overwhelmingly busy and pressured, plus mulling over how I juggle work/children/life takes up a big part of my brain but I can't share these things with her as she doesn't get it. She has a cleaner twice a week and while her kids are at school, she spends time on her hobbies which are painting, sewing, reading. It sounds idyllic but she seems utterly lost and has nothing that fires up any passion or purpose. Her husband is very successful but insanely stressed, she seems unhappy and has nothing to give her any ooomph, and long-term, I don't know that I can see this carrying on.

I'm loving how many posts start with 'I don't judge other people, but...'

I'm afraid I do judge some of the people I know, and I'm self-aware enough to know it comes from a place of envy at times, but also from a place of concern and bewilderment.

What I struggle with most is equality. When children are small, I understand the decision for one parent to stay home and the other work. But when children are older and at school, I genuinely don't see how it's fair and equitable that one half of the partnership gets up every morning and goes to earn the family's income while the other chooses not to. If a man decided he'd rather not earn a wage, and a woman had no choice but to carry on earning to support the family, we'd be outraged.

What I have noticed with all the couples where the men work and the women don't, is that the men seem incredibly stressed and often quite unhappy. I couldn't sit by and watch my husband bust a gut every day and not want to do something to help financially.

A friend locally, by her own admission, spends the time her kids are at school on long runs, at gym classes, meeting friends for lunch/coffee, watching boxsets and has a bloody lovely time - her words! However her husband was made redundant and has taken a job that pays significantly less so he is now looking for a second job in order to top up his pay. I struggle to see how this is fair, when she is quite capable of working too?

My closest friend hasn't worked for more than 12 years and if I'm honest, our very different day-to-day lives does cause a gap in our friendship. I run a business so work can be overwhelmingly busy and pressured, plus mulling over how I juggle work/children/life takes up a big part of my brain, but I can't share these things with her as she doesn't get it (and I suspect she judges me for working the hours I do). She has a cleaner twice a week so while her kids are at school, she spends time on her hobbies which are painting, sewing, reading. It sounds idyllic but she seems utterly lost, has lost her spark and has nothing that fires up any passion or purpose.

My closest friend hasn't worked for more than 12 years and if I'm honest, our very different day-to-day lives does cause a gap in our friendship

That's exactly the thing. When people are asking if we, working people, only talk about our jobs then - no, rarely. Me and my closest friends all work such different jobs that we wouldn't understand the details anyway. But a person who has never worked will not understand the things I'm dealing with. Juggling work and domestic responsibilities, handling tricky colleagues and managers and being actually responsible for financially supporting your family is just a different dimension and such a big part of my life - it makes a difference when I'm talking to someone who does not have it at all and never plans to.