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Original poster

How is this not murder?(upsetting)

601 replies

OhToBeASeahorse · 26/03/2021 12:16

A mother has appeared in court today charged with the manslaughter of her toddler.

She left her, alone, for 6 days.

How can this not be murder? I don't understand.

OP posts:
l2b2 · 26/03/2021 12:23

Is there a link to this story?

greyspottedgoose · 26/03/2021 12:24

If she lived in mother and baby unit how on earth did nobody hear the baby? There would have been others in the building surely

BlueEyedPony · 26/03/2021 12:32

@OhToBeASeahorse I'm heartbroken. That poor girl girl. My daughters 20 months old. I don't know how anybody could do such a thing.

thedancingbear · 26/03/2021 12:34

It is heartbreaking. It is hard to believe that the mother didn't have a very serious learning difficulty or a mental health problem. Hers are not the actions of a sane human being.

Original poster
OhToBeASeahorse · 26/03/2021 12:36

If this isn't murder... what is? How did she think she would survive?

Its utterly awful. I cant stop thinking about it

OP posts:
StormcloakNord · 26/03/2021 12:38

I know on an emotional level it's horrific and it really does seem like murder.

However I suppose if you go by the definition of murder in the eyes of the law, she didn't deliberate kill the child. The child died as a result of severe neglect/abandonment so man slaughter it is.

Whether that's right or wrong is a different story!

BlueEyedPony · 26/03/2021 12:39

That poor little girl. She must've been so scared. I can't even imagine what she went through. I can't understand how anyone could leave a small toddler alone like that. Knowing exactly what would happen.

Original poster
OhToBeASeahorse · 26/03/2021 12:40

So does that mean neglect can never be murder?

OP posts:
Love51 · 26/03/2021 12:41

Legally for it to be murder there has to be an action. Manslaughter is still a very serious charge.

ChelseaCat · 26/03/2021 12:43

Oh my goodness. I don’t have words for how upsetting that is. That poor little girl must have been in such discomfort and so scared. As the PP, I don’t understand how no one heard the little girl as I’m sure she would have been crying. And how did no one notice no signs of activity in their accommodation?

If the mother (I’m actually reluctant to use that word in this case) does have MH or LD issues then the relevant healthcare agencies need to have a long hard look at themselves and make sure there is real and impactful learning.

HasaDigaEebowai · 26/03/2021 12:43

For death to be murder it has to be established that the perpetrator intended to kill.

Love51 · 26/03/2021 12:44

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think, legally, neglect is murder. Morally reprehensible, but terms have specific meanings in law. That's why corporate manslaughter is a thing, corporate murder isn't. There has to be a deliberate act of violence.

scotsllb · 26/03/2021 12:44

How did no one at the mother and baby unit not hear or notice she hadn't been seen for 6 days?
Not that it's their fault the blame is solely with the mother but so sad no one checked on them.
Poor wee girl just heartbreaking

scotsllb · 26/03/2021 12:46

Yes there must be intention to kill for murder, in Scotland your actions may be so wicked and reckless with such disregard to life that could be considered murder also.

catpoooffender · 26/03/2021 12:46

That's just horrific Sad

Newnamefor2021 · 26/03/2021 12:48

Murder is usually premeditated and it's an active crime.

Whereas manslaughter is more omission/passive, she walked away any left her child, so it wasn't an active crime in the same sense.

Murder also implies intent, so someone who hits someone in a drink range is often changed with manslaughter was it wasn't the intent of the person to kill them.

Manslaugher isn't necessarily less serious though, in some circumstances you may get more more manslaugher than murder, all depends on circumstances and what relevant mitigation there is.

thedancingbear · 26/03/2021 12:50

If the mother (I’m actually reluctant to use that word in this case) does have MH or LD issues then the relevant healthcare agencies need to have a long hard look at themselves and make sure there is real and impactful learning.

Or maybe we could just resource them properly, as opposed to cutting them to the bone and then scapegoating them when someone else does something horrific.

Quartz2208 · 26/03/2021 12:52

Murder by law has a very strict interpretation which part of is the intent to kill or cause GBH - so yes neglect can never be murder and is covered manslaughter.

Sentencing can still be strict for manslaughter though

Moondust001 · 26/03/2021 12:52

@OhToBeASeahorse

So does that mean neglect can never be murder?
To demonstrate murder there has to be intent or, at the very least, a reasonable understanding that one's actions would lead to death. Although nobody knows the circumstances here, the CPS would only pursue manslaughter if they realised that there was no possible chance that the young woman in question had sufficient mental capacity. And the judges direction about medical reports supports such a view.

The way the story is being portrayed is a very deliberate effort to produce the response of outrage. I suspect that the full and true story is one that is significantly more tragic than even this tailored version of it.

RolloTomassi · 26/03/2021 12:53

God almighty, that poor child. Just horrendous.

I accept the legal definitions but on logical, moral level surely leaving her baby for 6 days IS effectively murder, because those actions were almost certain to kill her. Assuming the woman had mental capacity at the time I hope she receives the harshest possible manslaughter sentence.

Bubblebu · 26/03/2021 12:55

it is true that a charge of murder requires proof of some degree of fore thought and intention.

What is incredible in this case (speaking as a mother) is that someone (albeit only 17/18 years old and by the sounds of it without much of a network of support) could raise a child to the age of 20 months (with all the intensive care involved in getting them to that age ref feeding / nappy changing / general looking after etc) and then genuinely think (if she did) that leaving that child alone for 6 days without any carer would not result in death.

MyGorramShip · 26/03/2021 12:56

So she ran away at 14

Was in a social services ran mother and baby housing unit

Baby was on a CPP, but had no social worker

HOW?!

How was no SW assigned and checking on them regularly in these circumstances?

ShirleyPhallus · 26/03/2021 12:58

This story is absolutely heartbreaking. How could someone stay away for 6 days and leave the child like that.

Awful. Awful.

Hoppinggreen · 26/03/2021 12:58

Well she didnt actually kill her baby did she? So legally I dint see how it would be murder
According to her father the woman has been “missing” since she was 14 so I suspect there’s a lot more going on here.
Even so I can’t imagine how that poor baby is suffering