How is this not murder?(upsetting)

[OhToBeASeahorse]

A mother has appeared in court today charged with the manslaughter of her toddler.

She left her, alone, for 6 days.

How can this not be murder? I don't understand.

I was helping a young person (in a personal capacity, not professional) who grew up in care, was a young mum etc. She asked me to babysit her baby one Friday night at about 8pm (who is on a child protection plan, has a social worker etc), and I said I couldn't - I am a single parent and had put my own kids to bed. She messaged back and said she would be walking out her flat and leaving the baby (just a few weeks old) on his own. She said she'd leave the door of the flat open so I could come and collect him if I cared, otherwise she'd return back to the flat in the morning and look after him then.

The social worker she had, eventually said this was actually incredibly RESPONSIBLE of her to notify someone she intended to walk out. And it showed a great deal of maturity that she didn't just bring her baby with her to the (illegal, drugs) party as some other young parents had. The baby remained in her care. She had monthly visits, if that, from her social worker.

Having seen it first hand, I am utterly shocked at the complete lack of support that young care leavers get when they become parents themselves.

I don't understand how this could happen in a mother and baby unit. Are they not staffed? How could nobody notice?

Are mothers just left to their own devices in them? I thought the whole point of them was to offer support and supervision to mothers who are not capable of looking after a child on their own.

Some of the attacks on the mother here are a bit out of order. I seriously doubt she is evil. She is very young, from a difficult background and wasn't capable of caring for a child.

Another one who is reading “partied” as “was forcibly pimped out in various locations”. A tragedy all round.

But.....kids do have kids.

Not enough effort is put in by the State at grass roots to push youngsters into a life where they are confident and capable of leading a life of their own, free from the burdens of parenthood and with options.

You see it time and time and time again. Younger, usually impoverished families are having children because that's all they've ever seen people around them do. Theres no other plan. Theres no drive to do anything else - or if the drive exists, they are reminded of that when they dont have the necessary skills to succeed at anything else. Schools do what they can. Youth services do what they can.

But often, kids have kids because that's all they've seen others around them and before them do.

@Branleuse

its one of the reasons kids shouldnt have kids. Because teenagers CAN OFTEN be immature, impulsive and self centred. They have an underdeveloped sense of personal responsibility and OFTEN require support to parent adequately. The ones that do ok at it, are often the ones that have a decent support network in their own family. Have a child doing its own thing from a young age, history of impulsive behaviour. There were so many factors here that could have prevented this. That poor baby

I get where you are coming from, but I think 'teenagers shouldn't have kids' is too reductive.

I don't think it's controversial to say that there are people who are not capable of caring for a child. But not all young people are in this category, nor are all people with learning difficulties, and so forth. There are people who on paper should make perfectly good parents, but in fact fail completely, because they are are (for want of a better expression) cunts.

We're in danger, here, of passing moral judgement on anyone who has a child in their younger years, and I think would be unhelpful and wrong.

[quote OhToBeASeahorse]@kirinm the baby died due to starvation. So even if the mother was there, she wasnt feeding her. I'm not sure that's any better [/quote]
Oh god. I haven't read the story because I don't think I want to hear the details so didn't realise. How horrific.

It's not a Mother and Baby unit.

It's a supported living block, unstaffed, ran by the YMCA.

@MsRinky

Another one who is reading “partied” as “was forcibly pimped out in various locations”. A tragedy all round.

Or was being blackmailed, or was tied up in the drugs trade. Of course we'll never know.

But, like you, I'm sceptical she was out celebrating her birthday.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz I've taught in schools with a similar atmosphere and it was v sad. I wonder who has influenced her, given she hasnt been around her parents since she was 14.

It's just utterly terrible.

She was housed by the YMCA in a sort of complex for vulnerable young people. Why did nobody SEE or report this??

YMCA DownsLink was handed a three-year contract worth £336,000 by Brighton council to run the accommodation, starting on Sunday 1 September 2019, Brighton and Hove News reported.

The contact offered a 'medium' level of support for families, with all flats self-contained with their own kitchen, space for staff on duty, and a communal area for group activities.

It is incredibly sad. And it makes this case all the more complex. This isn't simply a case of "parent abandoned child for 6 days who subsequently died".

Its multifaceted and hopefully will go some way to highlight the failings of adults and services (sometimes through no fault of their own), on our youth.

God if this is medium support I'd hate to see low.

There's a missing child appeal for Verphy Kudi herself back in 2017, when she was 15. She had a 20 month old daughter when she turned 18, which meant she became pregnant at 15, which would have been the result of abuse. I agree with previous posters that the story of her supposedly travelling around several different cities partying for six days, when she's a just turned 18 year old single mother living in a supported living arrangement, says a vulnerable young person possibly being taken advantage of.

The judge is waiting for reports and medical evidence about her before sentencing. She's admitted causing the death of the child and has to live with that. It's a tragedy all round.

That housing had STAFF on the front entrance!!

@givemushypeasachance

There's a missing child appeal for Verphy Kudi herself back in 2017, when she was 15. She had a 20 month old daughter when she turned 18, which meant she became pregnant at 15, which would have been the result of abuse. I agree with previous posters that the story of her supposedly travelling around several different cities partying for six days, when she's a just turned 18 year old single mother living in a supported living arrangement, says a vulnerable young person possibly being taken advantage of.

The judge is waiting for reports and medical evidence about her before sentencing. She's admitted causing the death of the child and has to live with that. It's a tragedy all round.

I'm not saying she wasn't being abused or trafficked but at 17-18 I was certainly capable of travelling around the country to various parties and festivals one after another and I did do that.

@Bluntness100

"The difference is the intent to kill. Manslaughter is you killed but didn’t intend it, murder is you intended it."

@Thatwentbadly

"In the legal definition of murder means the prosecution have to prove to beyond reasonable doubt that the mother intended to kill her child."

There's a lot of legal misunderstanding here. You do not have to prove an intention to kill, merely an intention to cause GBH. Also, murder may be committed by an omission.

It's tragic.
I wonder if she intended to stay out for one night and it snowballed once she was partying.

I don’t understand why there isn’t a more specific death date ? A child taken into hospital and declared d.o.a. Who had died that day , is very different from a child having died a week before, surely they know roughly how ling she had been dead ?
Her mother would have been only 15 and a half when she got pregnant, so there have been failings from the care team. I know someone who (similar to fostering)sometimes has a young woman, with a baby who is at risk of being taken into care, placed with her. She helps teach the young mother the basics, supports her to look after her baby, and then the pair are usually moved on to supported living similar to this situation by the sound of it, where there are other young mothers. It is similar to fostering, a scheme to help young single mothers. Sometimes the baby does have to be taken into care, but usually not.
In this case this baby really should have been taken into care. Tragic.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

It's not a Mother and Baby unit.

It's a supported living block, unstaffed, ran by the YMCA.

It’s staffed.

@SirVixofVixHall

I don’t understand why there isn’t a more specific death date ? A child taken into hospital and declared d.o.a. Who had died that day , is very different from a child having died a week before, surely they know roughly how ling she had been dead ? Her mother would have been only 15 and a half when she got pregnant, so there have been failings from the care team. I know someone who (similar to fostering)sometimes has a young woman, with a baby who is at risk of being taken into care, placed with her. She helps teach the young mother the basics, supports her to look after her baby, and then the pair are usually moved on to supported living similar to this situation by the sound of it, where there are other young mothers. It is similar to fostering, a scheme to help young single mothers. Sometimes the baby does have to be taken into care, but usually not. In this case this baby really should have been taken into care. Tragic.

The baby may have died when her mother was away. It's sometimes hard to pinpoint an exact date of death for various reasons.

@Cam77

This government has spent a decade cutting all kinds of child services to the bone. Sure Start, youth services, and no funding for voluntary organizations. Provision of children’s homes have been handed over to the private sector to save money and they’re doing a worse job. Constant cuts mean a worse general society and provision for those most in need. Nobody who cares about vulnerable people should vote Conservative.

Every bit this ^^^

@SirVixofVixHall

I don’t understand why there isn’t a more specific death date ? A child taken into hospital and declared d.o.a. Who had died that day , is very different from a child having died a week before, surely they know roughly how ling she had been dead ? Her mother would have been only 15 and a half when she got pregnant, so there have been failings from the care team. I know someone who (similar to fostering)sometimes has a young woman, with a baby who is at risk of being taken into care, placed with her. She helps teach the young mother the basics, supports her to look after her baby, and then the pair are usually moved on to supported living similar to this situation by the sound of it, where there are other young mothers. It is similar to fostering, a scheme to help young single mothers. Sometimes the baby does have to be taken into care, but usually not. In this case this baby really should have been taken into care. Tragic.

Sometimes it’s just not possible to pinpoint exactly when someone died.

A horrific story.

Wouldn't the YMCA be culpable in some way if that was supported housing? The baby should have been found before 24 hours had elapsed! Surely someone heard her cries of distress? Very very distressing story. I hope she gets the maximum possible manslaughter sentence.

I don't care about her age or background, the bottom line is partying for 6 days was far more important to her than her poor daughter being left frightened, starving and alone.
I have no sympathy for her, she knew exactly what she was doing and made her utterly self-centered choice without even leaving her with food and water.
The girl lacks the instinct of human kindness and there's no doubt her actions have been justified for it to be manslaughter and not murder.