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Original poster

How is this not murder?(upsetting)

601 replies

OhToBeASeahorse · 26/03/2021 12:16

A mother has appeared in court today charged with the manslaughter of her toddler.

She left her, alone, for 6 days.

How can this not be murder? I don't understand.

OP posts:
HoppingPavlova · 26/03/2021 13:34

I think that's unfair. Some kids shouldn't have kids, but I know some absolutely wonderful parents who had children in their mid teens - and there are plenty of stories of neglect and abuse from older parents.

It’s not unfair at all. Your personal life experiences don’t negate the stats that neglect and abuse are much more common in underage parents than older parents. There will always be exceptions to the rule but I’m talking about averages and the stats show that in general kids having kids does not result in great outcomes in many areas.

GreyHare · 26/03/2021 13:35

@tenlittlecygnets

No support network?? Hmm

Kudi's mother Muba Kudi, 59, said: 'My heart is so broken. My daughter was missing. She had been missing since the age of 14.'

And Detective Chief Inspector Andy Wolstenholme mentioned the many agencies 'that have supported Verphy and Asiah'.

If Kudi hadn't wanted a baby, she could have had an abortion. I can't believe anyone could be so wicked, and so fucking stupid. I wonder if there's more to this?

And why didn't she have a social worker if she was on a care plan? I can only imagine that care services are stretched beyond breaking and that Covid has exacerbated this.

But none of that exonerates Kudi for going to parties for a week and leaving her toddler. FFS.

Poor Asiah.

Whilst I cannot condone what she has done, she was just a child when pregnant and obviously needed a lot of help and support and it looks like she had been failed in many ways, I think a little empathy goes a long way.
Bubblebu · 26/03/2021 13:35

ten

there is too little information to form a judgement about her history in terms of her own parents and upbringing since she was 14 years old.

However it would be a curious phrase to use if she had indeed been living at home with her parent(s) when and after she was 14 years old and her parents later described that time as her being "missing" when talking about a rebellious teenager who is at home.

Even if she was not living at home, absent further details, describing offspring who have left home at a young age (assuming the parents actually knew where she was) as "missing" seems odd.

Hotelhelp · 26/03/2021 13:35

It’s terrible but it’s quite clearly not murder.

sqirrelfriends · 26/03/2021 13:35

I can't even read the article. Horrific what that poor girl would have gone through.

BeingATwatItsABingThing · 26/03/2021 13:35

@HoppingPavlova

This is why kids shouldn’t have kids.
ODFOD!
Original poster
OhToBeASeahorse · 26/03/2021 13:36

But it's not unfortunate is it? Leaving a baby in a bath for 2 mins and they drown is a serious error of judgement. But if she died during the 6 days away there was no chance she would be alive. She was left to die.

I don't see how its different to say if you remove the oxygen from a patient.

OP posts:
BeingATwatItsABingThing · 26/03/2021 13:37

This story is just heartbreaking. My DD2 is 6mo so much younger than she was but I just couldn’t imagine ever leaving her to die! I’m going to need to give her even more love today!

restrainingorder · 26/03/2021 13:37

" the relevant healthcare agencies need to have a long hard look at themselves and make sure there is real and impactful learning."

What does "make sure there is real and impactful learning" mean in plain English? What do you want them to do differently given the resources available?

phoebemcpeepee · 26/03/2021 13:38

This is just tragic on so many levels but the dates leave me wondering whether the baby died or was killed (intentionally or accidentally) in her care and this is what caused her to go off on a bender. As others have pointed out, whilst clearly a troubled young lady, she did manage to raised a child for nearly 2 years so would know without question that you can't leave a toddler for a day let alone a week. Very very sad Sad

FedNlanders · 26/03/2021 13:39

Heartbreaking.

HoppingPavlova · 26/03/2021 13:40

I hope the mother gets the heftiest sentence that can possibly be imposed.

That won’t happen. If you let kids have kids (and how can you not - human rights etc), then you have a duty to support their kids in acknowledgment that their parents in the main cannot. And yes, there will be an odd outlier of a unicorn teenage parent but in general they need intense support to parent. If they don’t get this it’s going to fall down. That’s what happened here. So, ‘the State’ has failed both children and the parents sentence will no doubt reflect this.

Twobrews · 26/03/2021 13:40

This is why kids shouldn’t have kids.
I knew someone would post this. It's a shitty thing to say.

Bubblebu · 26/03/2021 13:42

OhToBe
i agree.

however much of limited intelligence she might have been (if she was/is) surely she has reached the level of intelligence to be able to think to herself "if I, a 17 year old were locked in a flat for 6 days with no food and no WATER" I might be in serious risk of death.

The more i think about this the more I cannot help but think there is a lot more to this than the news article publishes (eg undue influence of a 3rd party in her decision to go partying, the baby having already died when she left etc).
who were her "friends" who she was partying with? You don't travel those kind of distances to parties without a real degree of forethought (money etc) so it feels difficult to conjecture that not one of the people she spent time with during those 6 days knew she had a 20 month old baby.

Suzi888 · 26/03/2021 13:42

This reply has been deleted

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BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 26/03/2021 13:43

There is every possibility that she has left the child alone before this. Imo you are either someone who would never leave a baby alone (aka a sensible capable parent), or someone who would leave a baby alone - irrespective on length of time that is.

Bubblebu · 26/03/2021 13:43

and the reason why further details are not being given is because..............................so many of the "agencies" or similar (not to mention her own family) seriously f**ked up.....

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 26/03/2021 13:44

Are court proceedings published?

Bubblebu · 26/03/2021 13:46

NoBetter....

exactly.

Stratfordplace · 26/03/2021 13:49

All the people saying if you let kids have kids, you can join the Army at 16, you can marry at 16 fgs please stop condoning this vile person. As for the poster who said it would be different if the mother was white. Of course it wouldn’t be, remember the Phillpots?

scotsllb · 26/03/2021 13:50

@WaterBottle123

Incredibly sad. However can't help thinking the write up would have been different if she was white and might have referred to mental health issues etc.
Seriously?! I don't think that for a second
BrightYellowDaffodil · 26/03/2021 13:50

But if she died during the 6 days away there was no chance she would be alive. She was left to die.

'Left to die' is very emotive language and while I can completely understand why what happened is extremely upsetting, the law does not apply emotion and rightly so. It's clear that this is a very complex case and, as a PP stated, there is almost certainly more to it than has been released.

Ultimately there was no intent to kill (unless the mother had stated that she'd deliberately left the child to starve) even though it's not unreasonable to surmise that abandonment could lead to death, so it's manslaughter rather than murder.

Same4Walls · 26/03/2021 13:50

@phoebemcpeepee

This is just tragic on so many levels but the dates leave me wondering whether the baby died or was killed (intentionally or accidentally) in her care and this is what caused her to go off on a bender. As others have pointed out, whilst clearly a troubled young lady, she did manage to raised a child for nearly 2 years so would know without question that you can't leave a toddler for a day let alone a week. Very very sad Sad
This was my first thought. The fact the date of death prediction is before the date she left really stood out. She's clearly not had an easy life but she raised her child for almost 2 years so she would have known what the outcome would have been to leave her alone for 6 days. It does read like the child died and that's what sparked the 6 days of partying.

Such a tragic sad end to such a short life. I think we will all probably hug our small people a little tighter tonight after reading such a harrowing story.

Bellringer · 26/03/2021 13:52

Don't understand why no supervision. Someone should have been asssessing this.

NCISGibbs · 26/03/2021 13:52

@StormcloakNord

I know on an emotional level it's horrific and it really does seem like murder.

However I suppose if you go by the definition of murder in the eyes of the law, she didn't deliberate kill the child. The child died as a result of severe neglect/abandonment so man slaughter it is.

Whether that's right or wrong is a different story!

This! Morally it could be seen as Murder as a personal of sound mind would have the capacity to know that 6 days without food or water would result in death. However, legally she didn't murder the child as the prosecution would have to prove that she intended to murder the baby. This has to be beyond reasonable doubt and not just on the balance of probability. The case would have been dropped to prosecution of manslaughter as she was more likely to be convicted and given a sentence for the lesser crime. it is an incredibly sad and distressing case.