If you're female and frequented rock clubs...

[whoami24601]

Can you help me? I have a theory...

With #toomanymen trending and everyone sharing stories I've been mulling over my own experiences of harassment. Whilst thinking about my time as a teenager I've realised that, although I mostly went to rock pubs and clubs, all of my bad experiences happened in 'normal' nightclubs.

I have long thought that the rock scene is much more relaxed, friendly and accepting than others, and I'd like to know if that is your experience as well? I'm interested if I'm the exception or the rule.

Thanks!

Surprised by this as it’s not my experience at all - yes, lots of incidents in mainstream clubs / pubs, but also in rock clubs, live music venues etc too and several of the men who’ve done the worst things to me were men I know from those sorts of venues.

Come on, rock music / alternative music is hardly immune from men being abusive.

Definitely, this. Also as a younger (U18) teenager I also hung about on the folk-rock scene a lot and the men were always good sorts- I don't remember any harassment etc. Drum and bass nights also definitely all about the dancing. I'm sure there was harassment but it didn't seem prevalent or endemic and men definitely policed each other.

I did used to go to indie clubs in Manchester as a student in the early 00s that weren't so great, but a lot of them were a bit townie- there was sort of a fine line between indie/pop/cheese in some of them. The rock clubs seemed pretty much fine. I met DP at a rock night actually.

I've never liked regular clubs at all. So oppressive. Always groped.

Definitely agree. Been going to rock bars and clubs since I was 15 and never had any bother. Very friendly atmosphere, unthreatening, just very very hairy.

When I was in my late teens I went to mainstream clubs occasionally and it was such a different experience! Much more pushy, predatory, leery, vulgar.

Except, now that I think of it, the clubs where everyone was off their faces on e.

I remember a couple of very minor incidents in mainstream places when men were really vulgar or pushy towards me and my main emotion at the time was polite surprise! I'd just never enountered it, and I'd been going to the hairy rocker bars cince 15!

Goth clubs, rocker bars and gay clubs were the funnest and safest places to be as a teen in Dublin.

I spent most of the 90s in rock clubs and never had a problem, ever. Guys were respectful and friendly and I felt perfectly safe. Once I started going to 'normal' clubs it felt like being in a meat market with guys lined up along the walls choosing their prey. I still prefer to frequent rock clubs and I still find them more relaxed and chill than other places.

Agreed.

Same here OP

It was occasionally discussed in my circle of friends back in the day. I'm making no claims that this is any anyway anything other than anecdotal and perceived wisdom, but consensus was that men who were less intelligent were more inclined and 'following the herd' because they lacked the imagination and individuality to conceive a non-conforming identity of their own. It follows then that they would dress however fashion dictated, listen to 'pop' music, and hang around in whatever were the trendy bars and clubs. The lack of intelligence and overt vanity would mean a perception of threat from the male 'opposition', hence the toxic masculinity and need to 'assert' themselves with women.

Again, I'm not suggesting this was ever anything more than a pub discussion over a pint, but the above was a rough outline of what me and my friends perceived to be the problem with 'mainstream' pubs and club venues compared to the alternative scene. Folk in the rock/punk/goth clubs identified with the culture and that usually included certain political and sociological outlooks, so there was usually a degree of affinity and common interests to discuss, whereas the 'centre of town' places served no purpose other than posing off and trying to pick people up, hence the overtly sexual behaviour of some of the men who frequented them.

Not sure I agree, I'm not saying that that wasn't your experience BTW, but when I was going to rock clubs in my teens I experienced a lot of harassment.

I also went to a 'heavy metal' concert a couple of years ago and was groped by several different men even though I was with my partner.

male 'competition' obvs, not 'opposition'.

I agree, spent the late 90s and early 00s in rock clubs. "Normal" discos were meat markets, indie clubs had plenty of creepy guys but goth and metal nights and pubs felt v v safe as a young woman.
I used to finish work earlier than DH and hand out drinking alone in the Intrepid Fox in Soho or the goth pub in Camden without an issue. Met nice men, had lovely conversations and they welcomed DH with open arms when he arrived. Or left me alone with pint and book if that's what I was in the mood for.
Long time ago now.

Yes, my experience in the 90’s was in The Rock House (sadly now closed) I always felt safe, and would happily go in on my own as I could always find someone to dance with, but I was groped repeatedly on the odd occasions I ventured into the “normal” clubs and gated the whole experience.

The only trouble I ever remember in rock/alternative places was occasionally when townie men would come in and expect all the women to fall at their feet because they were the only ones in suits 

So true!! What they never realised was that we didn't want men in suits, we wanted sexy long haired rockers in tight jeans and band t-shirts!

Absolutely this, I've already said to DH I hope DD goes to more alternative/rock clubs. I always felt so much safer and had so much more fun.

Another old indie/rocker here who quite happily went into dives alone with no bother.

The ‘trendy’ clubs on the other hand...nope.

Yes that was always the case - everyone knew the townies were the ones that would grope you or punch your mates. Never happened ever in the indie/ rock clubs. I think people attracted to alternative music are probably more liberal and progressive in outlook. Talking about the 90’s/00’s here, no idea about now

Same here, always felt safer in rock/metal type places and gigs. I also notice that there are more middle aged and older people at these places and gigs, younger folk too, but a real mix whereas I've always found the more trendy regular places to be mostly (not all) younger folk. I'm not in any way saying that young people are an issue, just that I think the wider mix of age groups following rock possibly helps create a different and better atmosphere. Just my take, and not meant to offend!

I strongly agree with this. Coincidentally I was saying something along these lines not long ago. The only trouble I've had or people refusing to leave me alone and then getting unpleasant was in "normal" nightclubs.
There are always exceptions, but i think there's a level of acceptance or respect which comes with being part of the alternative scene. There are dickheads in every walk of life, but I've found the alt/goth scene to be a lot more tolerant and that goes way back to decades before being gay, trans, crossdressing, very out there/tattooed/edgy fashion/being unusual looking became as universally accepted as it is now.

Completely agree, I think people were genuinely there for the music and the atmosphere rather than to 'meet' someone. You could chat away to someone in the queue for the bar or toilets without worrying they would try to follow you back to your table. I never really thought about it at the time but looking back I never felt anything other than completely safe but then I suppose I was always with a group of friends too.

DH and I have had this conversation many times. We both frequented rock clubs (separately and then together) from mid 90s onwards and I always felt safe, only ever had unwelcome attention once and that was from a group of 'outsiders'. I once went to a regular club on a work friend's hen night, we were a group of quiet women, definitely not giving the impression we were interested in any kind of male attention and yet, I think every single one of us was groped or catcalled at some point during the evening. It was vile, never again.

Also agree with there being a much bigger variety of ages and young and older people enjoying the same music and fashion styles getting along very well. I remember being 14 and at Whitby Goth Weekend and middle aged rockers and goths being very nice to me and my friends. When my DDad went to gigs, teens enjoying the same music never looked at him as though to say why are there such old people here.

I was a proper indie kid back in the day, went to gigs from the late 80s aged 15 and never had any trouble. The men/boys were all real gents.
I used to like a bit of stage diving and once landed with my dress up round my waist, a really sweet lad immediately started fussing, making sure I was decent - honestly I never felt unsafe in any mosh pit!

My friends who were a bit more 'townie' definitely told a different story about their pubs and clubs sadly

Totally agree actually OP though i had never actually considered it until now.

Same here. I spent an inordinate amount of time at Rock City in Nottingham. The harassment I experienced was always outside that environment - walking there/ back, or if I went out with my friends to non-rock nightclubs. Same experience when I was at university. I guess partly because we were there to listen to music and have a few beers, the focus wasn't on hooking up. Also, IME guys into rock tend to be a bit more sensitive, or shy. The macho culture doesn't prevail.

I was always at the rock clubs. Never had any trouble. Only ever when I went to more trendy places which tbh wasn't very often!
Miss those days!

I loved Rock City, awesome venue

I agree a much more enjoyable night all round.