I’m a grown arse woman who spent the whole of dinner feeling bullied and did nothing about it

[Parcelle]

And I’m fucking furious with myself

I’m not a shrinking violet by any means and I KNOW I need to let it go but I was so confused I didn’t do or say a thing and now I’m kicking myself I let my meal be ruined by two absolute pricks.

DP booked a table at a lovely “posh” restaurant in London for our anniversary. I was veering on the side of caution re my outfit so dressed up rather than down and felt comfortable but also hoped I looked nice.

We were seated at a table next to two men. One slouched in what I presume he thought was some kind of insouciant manner all over his chair and the other gave me the most obvious up and down bitchy look as I was being seated.

I took my coat off and had it next to me on the seat and one of the men leans over and says “oh you do know this is the kind of place that has hangers hunny, you don’t need to leave it there”. I just smiled and thought right ok and asked the lovely waitress to hang it for me when she came back.

The second man then did the most obvious wide eyed stare at his friend, looked sideways at me and grimaced and started giggling like a teenage girl. Then then openly giggled and spoke behind their hands for the next 5 mins. It was so clear they were talking about me, my face was burning I just wanted the floor to open up. DP asked me if I was ok but hadn’t noticed what was going on.

I got on with eating my starter and the “leaning” man was pretty much lying down on the bench seat now about 6 inches from me scoffing and talking openly about everyone who walked past his table with his friend giggling and laughing. Someone they knew stopped by their table and again the side eye and up and down look from the first man at me and more grimacing and giggling.

I just wanted to leave. I don’t know why the fuck I didn’t just ask him what his fucking problem was, I’m so angry at myself.

They left after their mains and gave me a “oh by the way lovely dress sweetie” as their parting shot. DP had cottoned on my this point and just looked at me like WTF.

I’m so upset with myself for letting myself be made to feel 2 inches tall by two complete pricks

@MintyMabel

this type of behaviour from (a tiny minority of) gay men is a recognised thing and very confusing and upsetting for women who first experience it.

This is possibly the most ridiculous response I’ve seen on here for a while.

Why did you edit out that I'm gay myself? Are you homophobic? 😂

bitchy gay men are the worst.
there's loads of Ivy's now, there a chain like Cote now. Londoners don't really dress up to go, although I've been to ones in the cities and people do dress up.

Which branch of the Ivy and how have they not been fined/closed down?

Well said Silvergreen. Mabel, bore off.

They're two frustrated bullies. Don't beat yourself about not saying anything. I'd have been tempted to put my food over their heads but that's be tricky. You and your DH could have mirrored them laughing, giggling covering their mouths but then probably the best thing was to ignore them. You were just shocked at their behaviour and that's it.

@Smallsteps88

OP didn’t you know that on MN you’re only allowed to talk about the shit way you’ve been treated by men if they’re straight men?

To be fair its been clear from the outset that this was indeed a ‘bitchy gay men’ thread and what with the name change and all it was highly likely it was in bad faith.

Tables less than 1m apart is too close in any restaurant at any time. And people pay extra for this?

was highly likely it was in bad faith.

Why?

They sound like a pair of gay bitchy men who would behave like that with many people. Don't take it personally OP, they sound like shallow wankers. Their warped opinion is irrelevant.

@MyPersona dont be illogical. Why would gay men be exempt from being bitchy? This was @Parcelle 's experience. It happened to her. People of any size shape colour gender can be awful.

Op rightly knew she'd be accused of this though

Ivy West Street

@MyPersona could you stop openly troll hunting now please. Just report a thread if you've got issues with it.

@WitchesSpelleas

Take this scenario: Friend has found out her husband has been cheating on her and cries. You come along and tell her to stop crying and feel instantly happy as she is now able to contact David Beckham and ask him for a date. She feels instantly happy because you’ve told her to feel happy. She doesn’t like David beckham but because you’ve told her to be happy, she feels happy

OK, so firstly she's crying because her husband has cheated on her - so he has caused her to feel like that. I think most people would agree that was a reasonable and likely response on her part.

Secondly, as I said before, telling someone to 'feel happy' is not the same as cheering them up by being kind to them.

You've come up with a nonsensical and unlikely method of cheering a dumped wife up by reminding her she can date David Beckham.

How about we substitute the more likely behaviour of a good friend - being there for the dumped wife, listening to her as she pours her heart out, perhaps treating her to a day out. No, it's not instant happiness, but the dumped wife would be comforted by the kindness and attention of a good friend.

Again - you need to go back to the basis. No one can make you feel anything. Go up to a person in the street and say “feel lonely” and they can’t. Therefore no one can make you feel anything.

Peoples emotions to a situation is unique. Some people see a dog and get scared, others to to pet it. We are all different. Most people wouldn’t like that their husband has cheated on them and generally react the same way - after all we live in a society with shared views.

The David Beckham example was to show you that people can’t make you feel any way. It’s far fetched but you’ve understood the concept. I’ve given you one way a person thinks they can make someone feel a certain way - it’s so bizarre and far fetched you’ve understood it’s impossible. You’ve just agreed with the psychology theories around emotions.

What you are describing is a good friend offering emotional support, which will in turn change their thoughts and thoughts have an affect on feelings.

If it was so easy for people to make people feel a certain way there would be no depression. Instead there is because low mood comes from within and people need tools to help them manage their emotions. Those tools include talking therapies, food, medication, sleep, hobbies, friends, family, mediation etc. Again we can’t make people feel a certain way.

Again if you don’t agree with it - go back to my basic example that you can’t tell people with low mood to stop having low mood. You can help them, which doesn’t always work, but you can’t tell people not to have an emotion.

I also think perhaps you don’t understand what emotions truly are.

Again, I want you to feel happy I’ve taught you something you didn’t know. If you don’t feel happy, than it proves that I can’t control your emotions.

@Silvergreen

Ignore people for trying to insinuate you're being homophobic. I'm a lesbian and this type of behaviour from (a tiny minority of) gay men is a recognised thing and very confusing and upsetting for women who first experience it.

Silvergreen, what would be the effective response to this behaviour. I agree it is confusing and upsetting.

oh you do know this is the kind of place that has hangers hunny, you don’t need to leave it there”

"I'm not your hunny and I don't need your advice" then turn away. A swift sharp verbal kick right from the off is usually the only way to stop them. Let's them know you're not going to take their shit so they turn their bullying eye on someone else.

No idea why you didn't actually tell you DH what was going on. Not so he could be the big man protector or anything but why the hell should you suffer while he's oblivious? Makes no sense.

Another vote for, have a nice cathartic rant here and move on.

Their behaviour would have been every bit as dispicable towards whatever woman was seated near them.

Some men really really hate women.

What a couple of revolting specimens these two sound. From your description of events it appears to me as well as being completely nasty, they were also trying to goad you into a reaction, which would have spoiled your celebration even more. You did not give them the satisfaction of this opportunity, bloody well done on maintaining your poise and dignity. Far from being furious with yourself I think you should be proud of not reacting and for depriving them of the argument they were looking for. Their lives must be very empty and miserable if they have to behave like this to “entertain” themselves.

If it was so easy for people to make people feel a certain way there would be no depression. Instead there is because low mood comes from within and people need tools to help them manage their emotions. Those tools include talking therapies, food, medication, sleep, hobbies, friends, family, mediation etc. Again we can’t make people feel a certain way.

You are contradicting yourself within your own posts. You've acknowledged that people need 'tools to help them manage their emotions' and listed talking therapy, friends and family amongst those 'tools'. What is that if not other people having (in this case) a positive influence on the emotions of others?

go back to my basic example that you can’t tell people with low mood to stop having low mood

No one, apart from you, has suggested anyone can. We were talking about the OP's response to the behaviour of the men in the restaurant. The OP didn't say the men turned to her and said 'I want you to feel uncomfortable'. The OP described behaviour which made her feel uncomfortable.

You said No one can make you feel anything. That is patently and obviously untrue. You've even acknowledged that yourself by choosing as one of your examples, a woman who has been made to feel upset by her husband's infidelity.

You've made a comment that isn't true, and instead of acknowledging that you were mistaken, you've invented a straw man argument that people's ideas of influencing others' moods consists of going round saying 'be happy' or 'don't have low mood' and then cooked up ludicrous analogies to debunk what only ever existed in your own mind.

It's good you didn't give them the satisfaction of a confrontation, sometimes that's all attension seekers really want.

Pompous, bullying, sneering, lying down on the bench...
It wasn't Jacob Rees-Mogg was it?
Sorry, OP, it's not a laughing matter.
I've come across this sort of stuff in my past and it is horrible bullying
the ONLY thing to do is totally ignore them in a dignified manner.
Which you did - well done, but sorry it somewhat spoiled your night.

Happy Anniversary, OP.

Sorry you were upset by these horrible people. I would have been, too.

Idiot men like this happen so often to me, I don’t let it ruin anything anymore.

I can’t believe people act like that towards other people. Sorry they ruined your dinner, OP.

If they were sat that close to me and practically lying down I think I would have pretended to sneeze on them!

Tell them next time you're keeping your coat close to hand due to the utter riff raff in the place.

Competitive camp misogyny, queen bitchery is all a lot of these men have, it reminds me of a lot of very tragic men I knew years back who were very unhappy.