I don't like my daughter

[Noodlepopps]

Ok, so posting here for traffic. I have 2 daughters, aged 2 and 4. I adore my 2 yr old and I strongly dislike my 4 yr old. She's awful to me, never listens, hits me, throws things, cries and screams constantly, pushes her sister over, she's even told me she wants me to die so I never come back. I am inconsistent with how I deal with her, I've tried ignoring her, being calm, holding her, naughty step, sending her to bed, taking toys away. But a lot of the time I end up shouting at her, which I know is wrong but I get to the point of frustration that I can't take it anymore. I would never hurt her. I've said some horrible things to her though and I go to bed and cry my eyes out because I know I'm ruining my future relationship with her and I think things are verging on verbal abuse. I've spoken to my HV, she comes out to see us every few weeks but she just says I'm 'doing a good job' and I need to focus on myself a bit more. My husband works away and he comes home every few weeks for a week at a time. I'm getting to the point where I don't think I want my 4 yr old anymore, as awful as that sounds. I can't cope with her behaviour, I can't cope with my emotions (I have possible, undiagnosed PTSD). I don't know what to do. Nobody knows how I feel or how difficult things are apart from my husband who is amazing, but can't be here all the time. If anyone has any advice, I would be so grateful.

OP I'd recommend video interactive guidance (VIG). It's a relatively short intervention that helps refocus the adult child relationship irrespective of diagnosis, context or history - five or six sessions should be enough. Some health visitors and camhs workers are being trained to support parents in this but if possible ( sorry haven't read all the thread if you've mentioned resources) you'll probably have to find a private vig worker. I'd check that they were also a hcpc registered psychologist and had been practicing vig for a while.

@NoisyPeacock

20+ years, working in an area of extreme deprivation with dysfunctional families.

So not qualified at all to diagnose the presence of SEN or not at all then. Didn't think so.

You haven't refuted a single one of my points. I guess it's easier to slag off someone else than to make a coherent argument of your own? Carry on with minimising the OP's abusive behaviour, if that's what floats your boat, but you won't be helping her or her daughter. The OP focusing on an irrelevant diagnosis is an obstacle to helping this family recover.

Everyone who works with dysfunctional families will recognise what I am talking about. It's not just SEN by the way - diagnoses of physical illnesses can be used in the same way.

@NoisyPeacock

20+ years, working in an area of extreme deprivation with dysfunctional families.

So not qualified at all to diagnose the presence of SEN or not at all then. Didn't think so.

Not saying this child died or does not have additional needs but getting an accurate assessment of a child who is patented by someone who describes herself as borderline emotionally abusive and has poor MH, is not going to be easy!

@Noodlepopps you have been very honest and some people have minimised which isn’t helpful. This goes a bit further than normal stress with a small child. Being open and brave enough to share is important. Please keep doing this and seek help from your GP.

Cuts the other way too. Dd at 23 is still suffering from PTSD after years of exposure to teachers and medical staff convinced that her symptoms (from a different condition) were not real and the result of parental abuse

Yes, totally agree - have sadly seen this a number of times too. And, it can be self-reinforcing because, knowing they are under suspicion (unfairly) naturally makes the family defensive when dealing with SS/schools, which in turn fuels suspicion. Unfortunately, it's very hard to prove a negative.

^ shit! Horrible typo :( meant to say “not saying this child does or does not have...”

Gawd, there's some unpleasant judgemental comments on here which are really unhelpful. As is the in-fighting.

@NoisyPeacock

Some of the armchair psychology here is cringeworthy. It always amazes me how happy people are to 'diagnose' situations like this when they haven't got the first fucking clue what they are talking about.

Perhaps they have a different experience/viewpoint to offer, based upon their own experiences, just as you have your own potential 'diagnosis'. It's not helpful for you to use such aggressive language though to quash anyone else with different experiences.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow the referral I'm talking about is for myself, for possible PTSD. I haven't spoken to the GP about DD1, I'm not seeking any sort of diagnosis for her, I don't think there is anything to diagnose with her.

@Arthersleep

Gawd, there's some unpleasant judgemental comments on here which are really unhelpful. As is the in-fighting.

Look, there's a child at the centre of this. A child who is being damaged. Read the MN threads by the adult survivors of abuse and you will hear how, again and again, adults around them failed to intervene. Often the reason for that failure was social discomfort. So I make no apologies at all for arguing back at PPs on here who are seeking to minimise or be complicit in the OP's behaviour. But that doesn't mean I'm unsympathetic or unsupportive to the OP.

The OP has herself described her behaviour as abusive. It does her and both her DDs no good at all to minimise that behaviour or to suggest - as some PPs have done - that there is something wrong with her DD, or that the two of them are equally culpable. The OP and her DD are not peers, winding each other up. Her DD is a 4 year old, totally dependent on her mother.

[quote Noodlepopps]@MissLucyEyelesbarrow the referral I'm talking about is for myself, for possible PTSD. I haven't spoken to the GP about DD1, I'm not seeking any sort of diagnosis for her, I don't think there is anything to diagnose with her. [/quote]
Sorry if I have misunderstood, OP. You did say in one of your posts that you didn't think your DD"s behaviour was normal, but perhaps you meant in relation to your possible PTSD?

Please believe that I think you can change and that things can get better. I have worked with families in far worse situations than yours, and I'm not saying that it is quick or easy, but change is possible. As long as you commit to changing, you and your DDs can have a great future together. Taking the first step is the hardest part, and you are doing that

I think the reason people are reaching out and trying not to make judgements, is because of the circumstances due to covid etc....

Everything is amplified and there are plenty of parents who can not wait until their little ones get back to school.

The number of threads in here with parents saying they can’t cope anymore is heartbreaking, both for DC and the parent.

Toddler groups and the like aren’t accessible here at the moment and I know plenty of parents enjoy taking their preschoolers there each week. There’s also nurseries that will have been closed.

This could have built up over weeks and potentially months for OP. At the peak, we couldn’t even take kids to the park. Doing it on her own makes it even more difficult.

It’s easy to judge if you’ve got others to help, whether that be a partner or a parent (your own mum for example) or you have a very easy going child etc....

OP knows she needs to get some help and I’m sure she will. I’m sure she absolutely loves both her DD but sometimes she feels a bit overwhelmed and that’s ok. She’s acknowledged this hopefully things will get easier for everyone.

There are some good resources on PTSD online; have a look at Mind and Rethink. Reputable sites and helpful.

You need to help yourself as well as help your daughter(s)..
You know that this isn't right and well done for facing up to it. Life must be miserable .
There has been some excellent advice above . I have a couple of suggestions as far as DD1 is concerned.
make sure that the number of positive comments you make to her greatly outweigh the negatives , at a minimum by a factor of 7 to 1. As a pp said it needn't be big issues just simple 'thank you for sitting nicely while I put on your wellies ' or what ever.
Get outside as much as you can , DD2 is being prioritised if you don't go out because she doesn't like it and that isn't right. She can sit in the buggy while you concentrate on DD1 and the trip to the park.
Ignore as much bad behaviour as you possibly can. Children learn mainly by modelling , not by being told what to do. Keep telling her what to do to a minimum so that she can't be contrary and thus avoid things escalating and you raising your voice.
Look at other 4 year olds, they are babies, remind yourself.
Access help and support for yourself.

I wonder do you sometimes rely on your DD1 for emotional support. Part of you keeps expecting her to 'notice' you are struggling and to respond sympathetically in some way. But she's a 4yr old. She only thinks about her own feelings and that's exactly what a 4yr old should be. There's no point complaining to her about your situation or how messy the place is and no one cleans up except you, etc, etc.

You say your DH is 'amazing'. But he's probably fairly average isn't he?
My guess is that you are a bit angry with him for being away and leaving you all the shit with the kids to deal with. Also your lost your parents so they have left you to deal with this as well. I wouldn't be surprised if you feel abandoned sometimes and your two small girls cannot help emotionally with that.
Maybe sometimes you get angry and the only person there who can take it is DD1. She seems to be able to take it because she kicks back at you. That gives the illusion that she is 'tough' but she's not really.
It's tough being a lone parent of 2 small kids. It's really tedious, it can be really really boring and it takes loads of energy.
Have you thought about getting counselling as support for yourself. It's really tough managing everything you have to manage and not having anywhere to speak truthfully about your feelings and dump your emotional load. See your GP and tell them how you feel. If they gave you something to take the edge off your anxiety for a few months that might really help.
If you could get someone to mind the kids for an hour a week, or else you can do online counselling in the evening after they go to bed. Take heart, if you reach out for some help you will do fine. You've already done some of that by reaching out to this community on Mumsnet. Also your girls will grow up and things will get easier in the coming few years.

OP if your PTSD is potentially related to birth trauma ( apologies for making an assumption) your local maternity/midwifery services may be a good place to source support. Huge variations nationally but worth checking out.

Hi

Firstly, truly abusive, toxic parents often are oblivious to their behaviour. I suspect the fact that you know things aren't working and that you are not communicating effectively with your daughter shows you want what's best for her and are a loving mother.

It sounds like you may need some support from someone to talk through, non judgementally, what is going on and observe you and your daughter's interactions to see where things can be improved. Perhaps you could arrange a meeting with staff at the nursery to explain what is going on at home and see what they do differently there with her that works?

Maybe if possible get your husband to look after your other child and spend some one to one time with your 4 year old?

Sounds like my life years ago when DD1 was 3, 4, 5, 6 ..... Until she was diagnosed ASD at 9. I knew there was a problem, I asked for help many times, read widely (decided it was an attachment problem for no good reason, it just matched the symptoms, and actually presents very similarly to ASD) and did parenting classes. Was the parenting coach who changed my life - it was not me, it was DD1 (not that she could help it, of course) Life changing.
So I echo what @NooneElseIsSingingMySong is saying, sounds like masking at nursery and letting you have it once she's home because you're her safe person (despite what she says )
There is some good advice on this thread and some terrible judgment, be kind to yourself , you're doing the right thing seeking help no matter what the issue is, and stay away from Super Nanny!

I think that your little girl is probably really confused by your changing strategies to manage her behaviour. To feel secure children need some consistency.

I am sorry that your health visitor has not been more helpful. I would speak to her again and see if she can signpost you to a positive parenting course, or some one to one support through a family support worker. Alternatively there maybe someone at your daughters nursery that would be able to help you with a referral / signposting . They may also be able to support you with funding sometime in nursery or a childminder for your youngest child - time you could split between spending some one to one time with your oldest daughter , or some 'me time' for you just to relax a bit.

Another piece of advice given to me is to promise DD that every day you will spend 15 minutes together in which she can decide what you do. Now this might be difficult if DD2 doesn't nap but if she does then instead of using the time to fold washing or sort food or whatever give a short while to her . The arrangement is that you won't let her down and that she can choose the activity. She is possibly a little bit young for the strategy but it might be worth a try. Activities might include a board game or puzzle, hide and seek, making a den, painting her nails, teddy bears tea party, she making you up, icing biscuits etc ie practical for the time frame, situation , age and stage. It shouldn't cost money.

I come to you from 35 years in the future. My best friend was your 4 year old. Her 2-year-younger sister was adored. She has never healed. Her mother has never treated her fairly and this continues now. She absolutely felt that she had been replaced by her younger sibling. They were treated very differently. My friend has horrendously poor self esteem and has had years of counselling and struggles to form relationships. She effectively shuts down whenever anyone gets close to her. I’m her only long term friend.

Please please do something about this NOW. Your daughter does not deserve to be only recognised for the negative behaviours which are probably all about getting your attention because of a decision you made.

Did you have a more difficult time with DD1's birth. Did you have problems with feeding? Or problems with DH when you expected her?
Do you have a sister who you didn't get on with? Did your mother favour your DB or DSis and unconsciously you see DD1 as like them? Did something happen to you when you were 4 or thereabouts and unknown to you it is at the back of your mind?
I'm sure people think I'm ridiculous when I post these things but I am 70 now and when I look back I can see why people did get on/didn't get on, had favourites and it's so sad - people won't believe they are behaving differently to their children but they do. If you can see why for example, something that happened in the past affected your attitude to another family member then you can realise it's no one's fault, it's something from the past. That person isn't naughtier or more difficult or whatever and you just need to do your best.
I would advise faking it until you make it. Do your best to make DD1 think she is your favourite. Someone once said that when her DCs walk into a room her face lights up with pleasure. Can you do that for DD1?

@Feminist10101

I come to you from 35 years in the future. My best friend was your 4 year old. Her 2-year-younger sister was adored. She has never healed. Her mother has never treated her fairly and this continues now. She absolutely felt that she had been replaced by her younger sibling. They were treated very differently. My friend has horrendously poor self esteem and has had years of counselling and struggles to form relationships. She effectively shuts down whenever anyone gets close to her. I’m her only long term friend.

Please please do something about this NOW. Your daughter does not deserve to be only recognised for the negative behaviours which are probably all about getting your attention because of a decision you made.

... and this is why you need support and more importantly your child needs support from her father.

I'm sorry OP.. but this is serious.

There is no 'important business' under the sun that should come in front of your child's welfare.

If your child (god forbid) were sick.. I am sure he would take whatever measure required (put managers in to his businesses- cut the foreign travel down to virtual meetings ) .. to be there for you both. This is no different - in fact it has the potential to be far far longer lasting consequences than a physical illness.

This really should not be your burden to carry alone . You seem more than happy to exempt him from any requirement to help find a solution. ?

OP, I want to say how brave you are to admit that parenting isn't going as you'd hope, and for starting this thread.

I wondered if it would help you to know that your comments have resonated with me. I too am often shouting, when I desperately don't want to be that person. And my biggest hope is that I can raise happy children who I have a strong relationship with.

I've read the winter thread and in the spirit of staying practical these are the things that I will do differently:

• I will praise more, specifically for me every time I come into a new interaction with my DC (eg, if I've been tidying up dinner and they're playing 'well done for playing so nicely so that I can tidy'.
• I will praise even small good behaviour
• At the start of every request I will try to be positive rather than naggy 'I cant wait to have a lovely bathtime with you' even if I don't 100% feel it
• I will hug my children more. I think I hug them lots but perhaps not enough given some of what I see here and what their behaviour is.
• I will try to have one on one time with both and tell them how special it is for me. I perhaps assume that they know this, but now I will explicitly tell them.

I hope that you too can make changes and feel happier.

Parenting is tough. It has pushed me in ways I'd never imagined. I too have PTSD and PND and it has been a long road, not without bumps, and I'd imagine some more to come despite the fact I'm recovered now.

Please do understand that everyone, even those who are harsh, just want a happy outcome for you and your daughter.