I don't like my daughter

[Noodlepopps]

Ok, so posting here for traffic. I have 2 daughters, aged 2 and 4. I adore my 2 yr old and I strongly dislike my 4 yr old. She's awful to me, never listens, hits me, throws things, cries and screams constantly, pushes her sister over, she's even told me she wants me to die so I never come back. I am inconsistent with how I deal with her, I've tried ignoring her, being calm, holding her, naughty step, sending her to bed, taking toys away. But a lot of the time I end up shouting at her, which I know is wrong but I get to the point of frustration that I can't take it anymore. I would never hurt her. I've said some horrible things to her though and I go to bed and cry my eyes out because I know I'm ruining my future relationship with her and I think things are verging on verbal abuse. I've spoken to my HV, she comes out to see us every few weeks but she just says I'm 'doing a good job' and I need to focus on myself a bit more. My husband works away and he comes home every few weeks for a week at a time. I'm getting to the point where I don't think I want my 4 yr old anymore, as awful as that sounds. I can't cope with her behaviour, I can't cope with my emotions (I have possible, undiagnosed PTSD). I don't know what to do. Nobody knows how I feel or how difficult things are apart from my husband who is amazing, but can't be here all the time. If anyone has any advice, I would be so grateful.

The eldest probably misses her father and is unpleasant to you because she wants him to come back and is trying to think of ways that could happen.

It's rubbish, but she's finding things difficult, too.

Is there any way that you could corral the 2 year old in a buggy (and ignore the enraged screeches) and take them out somewhere where it's fine for the eldest to peg it off into the distance, like a park? Then come back and do something the eldest would actually like?

Other than that, you can try to respond to mean words with kind ones.

'I HATE YOU'

[deep breath] 'That's a shame because I love you lots and lots' [carry on doing whatever it was you were doing]

'I WISH YOU WERE DEAD' (because this is the nuclear option words)

[stop and look at her and speak gently] 'I miss Daddy, too. But he'll be back on... and we could make a cake/picture/whatever for him to see when he's home if you like?'

@Noodlepopps It's very hard for you, I know. I used to support women with PND, many of whom said similar things about their children. And you can make it better, slowly. First of all, try ending the day on a positive note. When you put her to bed, give her a cuddle and say "Today I was really pleased with you because you did xxxx, and I'm going to phone Daddy/Grandma/ Auntie, and tell them how lovely you are". Then make sure she hears you phoning...even if you're pretending. If you can't think of anything she's done that's positive, make something up, like "You put away your toys really quickly without me asking". If she says "No I didn't" Say "Oh, wasn't that today? it must have been yesterday, but it doesn't matter when it was , because I was so pleased and happy with you".
Others have suggested that you do something just with her, and that's excellent advice. I don't know if you put your children to bed at the same time, but keeping her up 15 minutes longer, and using that time for a cuddle and a "big girl's" story will help both of you to develop the bond. Try making up a story. It doesn't have to be complicated, but it should involve her. Something like "Once upon a time there was a Mummy and a Daddy and they had a very special little girl called DD1. When she was a teeny tiny baby they would put her in her pram and take her out for a walk. Everybody they met would stop them and say 'What a lovely baby, I wish I had a baby like that', and Mummy would say 'You can't have her, she's mine and I love her very very much'. The baby grew and grew and grew until she wasn't a baby any more she was FOUR! And mummy was so happy, because now she had a big girl to love. And the big girl was called DD1, and Mummy looked forward to just before bedtime, when she had her all to herself, and they could do special big girl things together. Then DD1 would snuggle down in bed and dream of the lovely things they would do tomorrow. And they lived happily ever after.

What was your relationship like with DD1 before DD2 was born? Do you feel like you ever had a positive relationship?

It does also sound from your posts like things feel very hard for you and like you don’t fully believe things could get better; have you spoken to your GP about how you feel? A course of anti-depressants might help if your mood is low.

I remember reading an article about being quiet, and not talking, let her talk, and you listen.
is she going to school in september?
she must be nervous about that, and want to stay at home with the safe family

Ok things aren't great at the moment but you can turn this around. Does the 4 year old have much to do with the younger one's routine? By that I mean could you try to make her more involved so that she doesn't see her sibling as a rival to her for your attention but as a way of "helping" you. Let her choose what clothes the younger one should wear one day for instance, and make sure that is what gets worn. Complement her choice, even if it is odd socks and clashing colours, "wow daughter aren't you a lovely big sister for choosing that, it's much better than what I would have picked". If the younger one is still having naps then use that time for one on one, again even if it's just half an hour doing colouring or suchlike. Again go with something like "phew xx is having a nap, now I can spend time with my big girl. What shall we do?". Focus on the positives one step at a time, it's hard but it can be done.
Also speak to both your Dr and HV and insist that you get help because at the moment they are failing you and that's unacceptable. Tell your HV that she may think you're doing a good job but you do not and you need help...it's what she's paid to do so make sure she does it, or request another and tell them why...the same with the Dr.
Talk to your DH when he comes home and maybe ask him to increase contact with you when he is away if he can, so that you don't feel so alone with it all.

I'm not sure how useful any of that is but I hope in a small way it has given you some ideas.

@Tomatoesneedtogrow

I remember reading an article about being quiet, and not talking, let her talk, and you listen. is she going to school in september? she must be nervous about that, and want to stay at home with the safe family

Also this. Listen to her, address any worries she may have, and constant reassurance that school doesn't mean that she will be forgotten about, rather that you'll miss her and will be excited to hear about her day when she comes home.

@81Byerley having a little cry at your post. Thank you for the suggestion ❤️

One of my children went through a tough stage like this when she was 3, she's 4 now and honestly she's a different child and has calmed down a lot. I think it was a combination of me having a new baby and her "terrible twos" a bit later than normal.
You love your daughter, it's her behaviour and your current situation with your husband working away you don't like. The more you shout at her, although it will be hard at times you really shouldn't because it's only going to distress her and make it worse.
Speak again to your children's centre. There's courses they can refer you to that deal with behavioural issues/ additional needs ( probably not at the moment due to covid but they can give you information).
One of the things I was told and it's so true is that you are the centre of her world and she feels her safest with you and that's why she is able to push boundaries with you and not at nursery.
I think you probably just need a break. Feel free to private message me if you want to talk further.

You've had some great advice @Noodlepopps
Well done for posting
One thing that really stood out to me was this:

wants me to die so I never come back. I am inconsistent with how I deal with her, I've tried ignoring her, being calm, holding her, naughty step, sending her to bed, taking toys away. But a lot of the time I end up shouting at her, which I know is wrong but I get to the point of frustration that I can't take it anymore. I would never hurt her. I've said some horrible things to her though

it sounds like to spend a lot of time telling her off but how much time do you spend showing or telling her what you'd like her to do and rewarding her for doing it correctly? She needs you to show her how to behave and reinforce that behaviour. Behaviour is learned.

I suspect you're run ragged so inadvertently ignoring any good behaviour and then snapping as she increasing plays up for attention, plus you've already admitted having unrealistic expectations for her behaviour.

Try and spend some time each day as quality time with her - baking, reading, playing or a trip to the park. can you leave DD2 with anyone to get some quality time withDD1 ?

Remember to give her clear instructions on what you'd like her to do if you're busy in the house.

'Dd1 I'd like you to go and draw me a picture of daddy' (or whatever)
That gives you 5-10 minutes to get stuff done, intermittently praising her for drawing nicely then when she brings you the picture give her lots of praise
She needs structured activities and positive attention so that she can learn how to get more positive attention from you

Is she in school yet? My eldest was a bit of a twat (but being a boy a lot less verbally abusive) and I found school helped sort his behaviour a lot. He’s still a bit of a prick at times and has the emotional depth of paper but he’s reasonable now.

Everything 81Byerley said.

Also try to be consistent, my mother had MH issues (and later alcohol issues) and my childhood was baffling, I could do something one day and she would laugh, so I'd do the same thing another day to cheer her up and be sent to my room.

You need some 1-1 time, 10-15 mins at bed time is good.

You could also start a hobby that is just dd and you, maybe when your DH is home (I assume he isn't working that week).

You said you could afford private treatment, so can you afford a babysitter? Maybe for 1 day a week or a half day for dd2 so you and dd1 do something, cinema, horse riding, going to a cafe, going to a museum, it doesn't matter what it is, something just the two of you do.

Something like babysitter arrives at lunch time and feeds dd2, while you and dd1 go to the park with a picnic and a ball / Frisbee / skipping rope.

I know it is difficult with covid but try some creative thinking, is there a grandparent, uncle, aunty who could take dd2?

Bw kind to yourself and to you dds.

@Dominicgoings

I agree with other posters. You don’t come across as a particularly empathetic person.

OP has come on here asking for advice. She’s having a very tough time. Don’t kick people when they’re at rock bottom.

If you’re such a perfect parent, offer constructive advice instead of having digs.....

OP- I feel for you. Don’t let posters berate you anymore than you have already berated yourself. I’m sure you’re doing a great job more than you realise.

It’s bludy hard work being a parent and sometimes the best of us lose our rag and raise our voice at times.

I do believe in the ‘positive parenting’ way, however children have different temperaments and some push the boundaries more than others. So the ones that do so more, are going to be harder at times than the ones that don’t.

It will get easier as she gets older. Good luck OP.

Oh my gosh

4 is a hard age! I remember people telling me about the terrible twos. My kid was fine. The threenager. Again. Mine was fine

But then it was like she'd saved it up for 4!!!!

Every single parent gets it wrong.

Izzy judd does this amazing mindfulness for mums!! We do a page everyday.

@Dominicgoings

What if her husbands on an oil rig?!? My husband works away often. Sometimes he's not even allowed a phone with him for days. You can't always demand they come home. Think!

My girls were both angels at nursery and not at home. Even asked for seconds of cabbage at nursery yet didnt touch a vegetable at home unless it was disguised beyond recognition.

Please be kind to yourself and take it hour by hour.
Does she like baking that's a good thing to do together just you two.

4 is a hard age! I remember people telling me about the terrible twos. My kid was fine. The threenager. Again. Mine was fine

But then it was like she'd saved it up for 4!!!!

Yes - had similar and aged around 9 as well but the teenaged years so far haven't been as bad as everyone says.

I know you said her dad is very busy, but any time he can spend could make a really big impact. If once a week, or even once every 2/3/4 weeks he could do something really special just the two of them. Letter her stay up every now and then if he's regularly back late so that she can have special time with him. Phone calls and video calls when he's away. Make being the eldest a position of privilege. Why would you act 4 if acting 2 gets more attention?

It was suggested to me that I try giving my older naughty child more responsibility not less. Letting them use things like paint or scissors when crafting (with supervision of course!), letting them help you with the laundry, the dusting, the hoovering even, getting them to use the food processor or electric whisk when baking, or being in charge of the icing. It gives you the opportunity to praise them, and honestly I have been really surprised at how mine have responded to this.

‘If you’re such a perfect parent, offer constructive advice instead of having digs.....’

Nasty.
But if you read the thread the constructive advice I’ve given is for the OP to ask her husband to step up. A child who is at risk of abuse is s child who needs to be protected.
I’ve also advised the OP to speak to her GP. Which she is going to do.
And I’ve also advised the OP to ask for another HV to make an assessment. Because as another poster has already pointed out, any HV who has been made aware if the seriousness of the situation as described by the OP and who has failed to act, is failing the OP AND her family.

@SylvanianFrenemies

I love your advice. Wise words.

If your dh runs three companies, can you afford to employ a part time nanny?
If you had someone come in every week day afternoon to look after your youngest, then you could spend the afternoons with your eldest having 1:1 time or you could have a bit of time to yourself to recharge your batteries. You sound done in.

Have you any family who could help out?

@Noodlepopps it sounds as though your eldest isn’t getting enough of your attention and the only way she can is by being naughty. She’s happy at nursery so this means that she’s getting more positive praise and attention there. Do you have a sibling or a friend that can take your youngest maybe once a week? Then you and your eldest can look forward to doing some mum and daughter time without the youngest being there.

If your mum was here, I am sure you would cope better. And it's that thought that takes me to the Granny AuPair or Hire a Granny suggestion. A mature, calm, experienced mother who could support you, help with your behaviour, which I am sure your daughter mirror's, and give you the confidence in yourself to move on in the right direction.

We all need friends and support. Sometimes we have to pay for that. Something to think about, perhaps?

@Dominicgoings

‘If you’re such a perfect parent, offer constructive advice instead of having digs.....’

Nasty.
But if you read the thread the constructive advice I’ve given is for the OP to ask her husband to step up. A child who is at risk of abuse is s child who needs to be protected.
I’ve also advised the OP to speak to her GP. Which she is going to do.
And I’ve also advised the OP to ask for another HV to make an assessment. Because as another poster has already pointed out, any HV who has been made aware if the seriousness of the situation as described by the OP and who has failed to act, is failing the OP AND her family.

If you think my reply to you was nasty.....

just think on how awful OP would have felt after reading your blunt post when she’s clearly at rock bottom!!

It’s telling that she is well behaved at nursery, as it clearly suggests the problem sits with her home life. I would say she is very aware that you dislike her. You say you treat both the same, and you may think you do, but an outsider would probably spot that you’re not. Probably a sub conscious thing, but it will be picked up on by your dd. Try have extra one on one time with her if you can.

so I usually look like THAT mum with the screaming, out of control kids

This is something you need to try to stop worrying about. Its very easy to get trapped into "peformance behaviour management" when surrounded by judgemental twats but if you can develop more self confidence and care less about judgement it makes life a lot calmer.

Its also entirely normal for kids to be little sods for you and angels for nursery/others and for older kids to start playing up when siblings arrive (my 2nd turned into the demon from hell when 4th arrived).

I would echo looking at the positive parenting programmes - look at several and pick one which resonates with your life. Like diets it matters less which one you programme you choose so long as you can stick to it.

If DH isn't in a position to take some parental leave/be home more can you afford to pay for some help? Both in terms of private help for mental health (NHS mental health services barely exist, especially for women) and possibly practical help eg trainee nursery nurse or au pair to spend time with the 2 yr old whilst you do something with the 4 yr old. Or even someone to do the housework for a while or some babysitting to give you a few hours break?

For all the judgemental comments and looks, you are far from alone. DM swears my youngest sibling only escaped being thrown out of a window by a miracle and we have all had moments of wanting to just run away!