I don't like my daughter

[Noodlepopps]

Ok, so posting here for traffic. I have 2 daughters, aged 2 and 4. I adore my 2 yr old and I strongly dislike my 4 yr old. She's awful to me, never listens, hits me, throws things, cries and screams constantly, pushes her sister over, she's even told me she wants me to die so I never come back. I am inconsistent with how I deal with her, I've tried ignoring her, being calm, holding her, naughty step, sending her to bed, taking toys away. But a lot of the time I end up shouting at her, which I know is wrong but I get to the point of frustration that I can't take it anymore. I would never hurt her. I've said some horrible things to her though and I go to bed and cry my eyes out because I know I'm ruining my future relationship with her and I think things are verging on verbal abuse. I've spoken to my HV, she comes out to see us every few weeks but she just says I'm 'doing a good job' and I need to focus on myself a bit more. My husband works away and he comes home every few weeks for a week at a time. I'm getting to the point where I don't think I want my 4 yr old anymore, as awful as that sounds. I can't cope with her behaviour, I can't cope with my emotions (I have possible, undiagnosed PTSD). I don't know what to do. Nobody knows how I feel or how difficult things are apart from my husband who is amazing, but can't be here all the time. If anyone has any advice, I would be so grateful.

I also find that I'm talking to DD1 as if she's about 10yrs old sometimes. Because she's the older sister I seem to expect too much of her. I have to constantly remind myself that she's only 4. Maybe you do this because you are alone as the adult. She is only 4 and her boundaries are too loose. In no uncertain terms she needs to be put in her place, she'll actually feel happier in herself if you take charge of this now. Be pro-active rather than reactive, if you see bad behaviour starting up, nip it in the bud quickly before a full on tantrum and your frustration runs away with you. Keep taking her toys away and they have to be earned back. You can stay calm but be very assertive (say to yourself, this not allowed, she is four, I am in charge) believe in yourself, the child picks up on that. Aside from that @JadesRollerDisco post is very, very good.

just think on how awful OP would have felt after reading your blunt post when she’s clearly at rock bottom!!

Quite. "just change your husband/HV/house/life" is always such an easy instruction to give when indulging in a fine bit of judgementalism. These are not easy or even possible to change, let alone in a pandemic.

Also possible that the HV who knows the family thinks the situation is less bad than the OP and may have identified the issue as an overwhelmed mother in need of help. After all the worst behaviour the OP has described on her own part is shouting and then feeling guilty and upset for not managing the child's behaviour effectively, something for which she is seeking help to change.

The OP needs help and advice on managing difficult behaviour, not to be told she is a monstrous abuser because she has reached the end of her tether and is asking for help.

@C8H10N4O2

just think on how awful OP would have felt after reading your blunt post when she’s clearly at rock bottom!!

Quite. "just change your husband/HV/house/life" is always such an easy instruction to give when indulging in a fine bit of judgementalism. These are not easy or even possible to change, let alone in a pandemic.

Also possible that the HV who knows the family thinks the situation is less bad than the OP and may have identified the issue as an overwhelmed mother in need of help. After all the worst behaviour the OP has described on her own part is shouting and then feeling guilty and upset for not managing the child's behaviour effectively, something for which she is seeking help to change.

The OP needs help and advice on managing difficult behaviour, not to be told she is a monstrous abuser because she has reached the end of her tether and is asking for help.

You’re absolutely right!!

I also thought your post was really refreshing and reflects reality, far more than than the brigade of mothers who proclaim-

‘I never raise my voice, I ALWAYS follow 100% positive parenting, I am the perfect example of a parent and my kids are also perfect...’

Yeah, sure....

So many mums experience this. I don’t know the root cause for you but some sort of childhood trauma of your own, lack of practical support, traumatic birth or pregnancy, maternal isolation seem to be the source for many.

You can turn this around! But no force of will to ‘bet better’ will help if you don’t personally have enough sleep, someone kind to talk to each day and childfree time. Some mums can cope without these things, but because you are under extreme stress you really, really need them. Counselling is good but honestly I think paying for help will help you counsel yourself.
I also second “the book you wish your parents had read and your children will be glad you did”. It’s basically do it yourself psychotherapy.

Op there is some great advice here,

I think it may help if you,

Fake it till you make it, forget about whether or not you like her at the moment, disconnect a little, lower your expectations.

( l had 2 under 2 and my DH was often away, l took turns liking and disliking mine as they went through different stages! ) But l learnt to walk away and hide my frustration, keep an emergency bar of chocolate and a magazine in the loo and sit in there and take 10 mins when you think you may snap!

Set non acceptable actions and consequences and put on a kitchen poster, go through them with her calmly.

Ie for hitting each time a favourite toy gets removed for a day (put in box in garage or loft)
For going a week without hitting a favourite activity is done on Saturday, ie extra park/playdate/swimming . Mark each day towards this goal.

Just start with two actions you want to work on to begin with, add more once you are making progress.

Plan well ahead for potentially difficult situations, each day before you start. What can you do to mitigate problems.

eg, If l had to go somewhere where mine would get bored after a short time and it would be difficult to leave, l would bring a small new toy each (often charity shop items). Once they got fidgetty l would give toy/colouring book etc.

Commit to going grey rock in the face of bad behaviour, no shouting or arguing back, but always know what consequences you are going to use and make sure you are actually able to do them in the situation you are in. Plan.

Choose a course of action and don't change it, be very consistant.

If it is financially feasable, get two half days off with a babysitter, and do an activity you enjoy. When you feel you are going to yell, think hard about your next time off, for 10 seconds, it will calm you. Then carry out consequences.

These are things l learnt and may hopefully be of some help....

‘After all the worst behaviour the OP has described on her own part is shouting’

I am not going to quote the OPs post but I strongly suggest that you, and a few others go back and read it.
The OP will, I have no doubt, be galvanised to start making some positive changes.
But please do not twist my posts to make it look as if I am berating someone who occasionally shouts at a naughty, headstrong 4 year old.
The OP is brave enough to post about how bad things are. The irony is that many of those adopting a softly, softly approach are the very ones failing to recognise the seriousness of the sutuation.

Maybe find some times (even if only when DH is home for a week) to do positive things just the two of you with DD1, so that she knows you are wanting her exclusive company. Please do not let this escalate, or both your daughters will be unhappy adults, and it will affect their relationship with each other, and yours with them both for ever. I had a similar situation as a child with my mother, and although it was no one's fault, it affected us badly all our lives. Lots more resources available now for you, so good luck in turning this around at an early stage..

I am not going to quote the OPs post but I strongly suggest that you, and a few others go back and read it.

I read it. Please quote the part where she describes worse than shouting and then feeling bad about it.

It is just possible you know that the professional HV has correctly diagnosed the issue as an exhausted, overwhelmed mother rather than an emotionally abusive danger.

Because if reaching the end of your tether and shouting at a badly behaved child when all else has failed, then feeling bad about is now classified as a danger to children then half the parents in the country would be behind bars.

Reading through your post the first thing that strikes me is that, in actual fact, you love your daughter very much. The second thing is that you actually do seem to like her too. The opposite of love is not hate or dislike (the two are very much connected through love and hurt). The opposite of love is indifference. And you certainly are not that!! However, when you are depressed, you feel numb. A lot of mothers then panic and interpret this feeling as a lack of love for their baby/child, without noticing that, in actual fact, they also feel numb/detached towards others and most things. That's what depression or anxiety does. It turns you numb. It seems clear to me that you have had a tough time with DC1 when she was a baby/toddler and that, you are now emerging from that, but still focussing on the guilt and failure. By focusing on her bad behaviour, you are using this to berate yourself/punish yourself and as further evidence that you are a failure. The behaviour that you have described doesn't alarm me. I have heard my friends kids say the same sort of things to their mums etc despite there being no problems with depression. And it's water off their parents backs. You are clearly feeling low. And that's not surprising with two under two, no parents around and DH working away. I think that many would feel the same way. You've had some great suggestions on here re spending a little extra quality time with DS1 and also re giving yourself a bit extra time/getting some support. A reward chart is a great idea as it helps with consistency.
It sounds to me that you are most probably doing a good job overall, but that the biggest issue is still the left over numbness/panic over the way you view your relationship with DS1. You need to break the cycle re negative thinking if you can as this is exhausting and making you stressed out. If you catch yourself worrying/dwelling on it, try to do something different (the calm app is good for mindfulness). You're just stuck in a bit of an emotional rut right now and need extra help in order to help increase your happiness. 💐

Some of the armchair psychology here is cringeworthy. It always amazes me how happy people are to 'diagnose' situations like this when they haven't got the first fucking clue what they are talking about.

There could be any number of reasons for her behaviour, including SEN.

Some of the books recommended are good but in your shoes, if money allows, I wouldn't mess about- I'd make an appointment to see a private educational psychologist and get their take on it all. An ed psych would be in a position to look at all sorts of reasons for the difficulties you are having. If she does have SEN then early identification and intervention will make the world of difference to you both in the long term. If she's masking at preschool then you'll have a massive battle trying to get her evaluated by 'the system' so honestly, if you can afford it, save yourself a lot of energy and angst and get a private evaluation.

For what it's worth, I have been in your shoes and I think those who haven't find it hard to grasp that it's actually the relentlessness of very challenging behaviour that is the real problem when it comes to parenting behavioural problems. Anyone can successfully parent the odd outburst beautifully but when it's all day every day you begin to lose your mind. Easy to point fingers of blame and judge when you haven't been pushed to the point you have OP. Personally I agree with those who say that you MUST somehow find a way to make time for yourself.

Hugs from me

[quote Noodlepopps]@Nanny0gg both my parents have passed away and my husbands parents don't want to help out at all. I have a couple of friends but I do struggle to get out much. I think we've struggled mostly since DD2 came along. Everyone keeps telling me it's normal 3/4 yr old behaviour, but I don't think it is and I feel like I'm exasperating the situation. I need to go back to the GP, but she keeps telling me that a referral will take a long time. I need to look into doing it privately. [/quote]
Stop looking for a diagnosis that will make this your daughter's fault. I see this so often with dysfunctional families, and it only makes things worse, by giving them an excuse to scapegoat the child, who ends up even more damaged.

As a PP said, even if your DD did have a behavioural disorder, all that would mean is that you have to step up your parenting another level. And it is highly unlikely that your DD does have a behavioural problem, given that her behaviour is 'perfect' in nursery. Yes, lots of kids save up the bad behaviour for home, but a child with ADHD etc won't be 'perfect' at nursery/school either.

I think it's likely that you are abusing your DD. IME, when parents say they are 'verging' on abuse, they are usually way past that point. It's not too late though. Forget about a private referral for your DD - get help for yourself. You have a lot going for you, because you have some insight into your behaviour and you're willing to change. That's huge. Please get the help you need. It is you who needs help, not your DD.

‘Because if reaching the end of your tether and shouting at a badly behaved child when all else has failed, then feeling bad about is now classified as a danger to children then half the parents in the country would be behind bars’

Again, you are totally minimising what the OP has posted. She herself has referred to her behaviour as verging on verbal abuse. No one else.
But if it makes you feel better to minimise then knock yourself out.

As a PP said, even if your DD did have a behavioural disorder, all that would mean is that you have to step up your parenting another level. And it is highly unlikely that your DD does have a behavioural problem, given that her behaviour is 'perfect' in nursery. Yes, lots of kids save up the bad behaviour for home, but a child with ADHD etc won't be 'perfect' at nursery/school either.

This is bullshit. Many ASD and ADHD kids are able to mask at school.

Investigating possible SEN is nothing about 'child blaming' it's about gaining a better understanding of the child's needs in order to be able to better tailor approaches to their specific needs which in turn leads to happier children and parents all round.

Big hug to you. It sounds like you've both got into a pattern of winding each other up. Remember she is only a little tiny child and she doesn't have the ability to change this situation. I would suggest 'fake it, til you make it.' Kind words, praise, interest in what she's doing, join in her play etc. I bet she will really respond, then you will see a different side of her. I remember reading a great book called something like 'what do do when your children push your buttons.' Maybe google it. It helped me through a very hard patch. x

@NoisyPeacock

As a PP said, even if your DD did have a behavioural disorder, all that would mean is that you have to step up your parenting another level. And it is highly unlikely that your DD does have a behavioural problem, given that her behaviour is 'perfect' in nursery. Yes, lots of kids save up the bad behaviour for home, but a child with ADHD etc won't be 'perfect' at nursery/school either.

This is bullshit. Many ASD and ADHD kids are able to mask at school.

Investigating possible SEN is nothing about 'child blaming' it's about gaining a better understanding of the child's needs in order to be able to better tailor approaches to their specific needs which in turn leads to happier children and parents all round.

You misunderstand my point. I'm not saying that a diagnosis of SEN is normally about blaming the child - of course not. A diagnosis of SEN is key to getting support for the whole family and to helping the child with SEN achieve his/her full potential.

But, in the PP's case, it is highly unlikely that her DD has SEN. Yes, kids can often mask at school, but a 4 year old with behavioural SEN will not be able to mask all day, every day.

More importantly, fixating on a diagnosis of ODD/ADHD etc in the scapegoated child within a family is a common feature of abusive and dysfunctional parenting. It makes the hairs on the back of my neck rise, because i have so often seen it happen to children being abused.

I think that looking after yourself is really important, especially as you don't seem to have a lot of support at the moment.

If you have some money to throw at the problem I'd consider
Therapy for your self
Parenting advice and support
More childcare so you can have a break and/or one on one time with your 4 year old
Domestic help so you can spend more focused time with your dc

I think trying to go out somewhere each day is a good idea. Do you have a nice garden to play in?

Just wanted to say that Suzanne Zeedyk who is a big name in children and attachment and delivers training to public and voluntary sector in Scotland, always says that 'repair is more important than rupture'. I think that is a helpful and hopeful thing as you work to change things.

OP is definitely scapegoating the eldest. Why should your 2 yo get to decide what you do as a family? She needs to learn that what her sister wants matters too and that means buckling her into a pushchair and making her go out and ignore her if she screams - have a good time with your eldest anyway.

But, in the PP's case, it is highly unlikely that her DD has SEN. Yes, kids can often mask at school, but a 4 year old with behavioural SEN will not be able to mask all day, every day.

And what qualifications do you have exactly, in order to judge this?

I just wanted you to know that I have felt like this, on occasion, about my DS over the years. Please don't feel ashamed of it, you are ony human. It's brave of you to speak up and open up about it. Don't hide your experiences from your DH. I find being open with my DP about DS's behaviour helps a lot. he neds to understand what is happening. I also think, it is highly likely (as others have said) that this is a phase and there is every chance you will have a positive relationship with your DD in the future.

Contact my friend, Emma, at calmconnections.org/contact/ She advocates positive parenting and should be able to give you some sound advice.

@NoisyPeacock

But, in the PP's case, it is highly unlikely that her DD has SEN. Yes, kids can often mask at school, but a 4 year old with behavioural SEN will not be able to mask all day, every day.

And what qualifications do you have exactly, in order to judge this?

20+ years, working in an area of extreme deprivation with dysfunctional families.

It's not just the DD's age either, it's the way the OP talks about her. She's not seeking a diagnosis of SEN so that she can get the daughter help and support. She is seeking a diagnosis of SEN to excuse and minimise her behaviour as a parent which - in her own words - is verging on abuse. She is trying to distance herself from her own behaviours, and minimise them as being a reaction to how her DD behaves when, in reality, the opposite is likely to be true - her DD's behaviour is a reaction to the OP's.

I don't mean to give the OP a hard time, because it's great that she is facing up to what is happening, and is trying to change. But she needs to be honest with herself about what the problem is.

20+ years, working in an area of extreme deprivation with dysfunctional families.

So not qualified at all to diagnose the presence of SEN or not at all then. Didn't think so.

The Gentle Discipline Book is good! Looks at what they can understand at different ages.

More importantly, fixating on a diagnosis of ODD/ADHD etc in the scapegoated child within a family is a common feature of abusive and dysfunctional parenting. It makes the hairs on the back of my neck rise, because i have so often seen it happen to children being abused.

Cuts the other way too. Dd at 23 is still suffering from PTSD after years of exposure to teachers and medical staff convinced that her symptoms (from a different condition) were not real and the result of parental abuse. As far as she was concerned, it was an atmosphere of constant gaslighting: "these things must be happening"- when she knew they were not, "these things can't be happening"- when she knew they were. It left her terribly insecure and she still has trust issues around authority figures, though she masks it with pleasant (not to say people-pleasing) behaviour.

Fwiw every school report had her down as immaculately behaved. These people have no idea of the damage they've done. If they remember dd at all it will be as a polite and hard-working little girl- "but wasn't there something funny about her parents?"

Her secondary school and CAHMS had to deal with the fall-out.

Sorry, OP, that was a complete side-track, prompted by a post not at all to do with you and your dd. Just ignore it.