Help explain non-gendered clothes to DM & MIL?

[NewbieMumma]

Please can someone help me and DH formulate a neat phrase to explain to my mother and my MIL why my DH and I do not want gendered gifts and clothes for our new baby? We don't know the gender yet (due in a couple of days) and we have bought gender neutral baby grows and things. We want to maintain this once the baby is here, and not dress them in overtly blue dinosaurs or pink hearts, and slogans etc. This is all in line with our views and how we try to carry out our roles at home. Both MIL and DM are very old fashioned and were very 1950's style wives and mothers, which was their choice but not the way we live.

As generous as it is of the GPs to want to buy the baby clothes, we tried to casually say "nothing too gendered please" mainly so that it wasn't a waste of their money. However we have been met with constant resistance and questions. Eg "surely once you know the sex you'll be buying blue / pink"? "What if they are a girly girl" etc etc, "what is he loves trucks"? "It's so sad / cruel" etc!

I find it so time consuming to explain why I don't want to dress my child in "daddy's little princess" type stuff which only promotes gender role stereotypes in a tiny child who has no inclination towards any of this and no knowledge of patriarchy at first. I know there's only so much we can do and it won't be long before we start to see our child influenced by the patriarchal society is is immersed in, but I think it's reasonable for us to do what we can to balance the scales a little bit whilst the child is in their home environment, through books, toys, clothes, critical thinking and choice of language etc etc.

My mother and MIL just can't get it and say that we will struggle as the shops only sell girls clothes and boys clothes. DH answers his mum's comments with sensible rational reasons why our choice makes sense and tries to get her head around the concept, but she keeps on asking, or texting us photos of "cute" clothes, eg pink tutu dresses. We are also choosing not to dress the baby in "outfits" (dresses, jeans etc) mainly due to simplicity, and she's also questioning that alongside.

Anyway, does anyone have any ideas about something quick we can say that explains our pov and helps us make our point? Or do we just give up trying to explain?

I know I'm very probably way over thinking (tired and hormonal) and should just say a firm "that's our choice", but it irks me that they are trying to cajole us and that at this rate we will be gifted a bunch of stuff we don't want to give to our baby.

When I was last in Primark, looking for something for DGS I noticed that the girl's clothes weren't a sea of pink for a change. However as DGS is really into trucks (well the wheels anyway) and dinosaurs he's fine.

I was born in the 60s and I clearly remember my trainset, the train was red.

@therealkittyfane has hit the nail on the head with her first post imo.

Also when your baby has done a poo explosion in the middle of the night and you're rooting around for a new outfit, trust me it's highly likely you will not care what the clean, dry outfit has got written on it or what colour it is

@JaniceWebster

Long hair and a pink shirt on a man

just leaving that here because I can ....

Jason def does not do "gendered" dressing.

For some reason children are expected to adhere to gendered appearances so people know how to treat them

Just like adults then.

Just like adults then.

Not really. Imagine a baby or 10 year old boy in the outfit Jason is wearing above.

At best people will insist he’s a girl, at worst it will be homosexual or sissy “jokes”.

Jason, however, definitely male.

Cern01
Gender stereotypes are massively damaging; they entitle men to believe that they are superior and women to believe the same, the net result is a licence to abuse.

Ridiculous. Certainly when it comes to dressing babies. Dressing boys in blue with trousers with dinosaurs is going to turn my sons into abusers. Total tripe.
Doesn't it come down to how these boys are treated and how their parents treat each other. Teach kids to respect and they will respect others equally. That's my hope anyway.
I doubt it's anything to do with what they are wearing when they are babies.

Not really. Imagine a baby or 10 year old boy in the outfit Jason is wearing above

At best people will insist he’s a girl, at worst it will be homosexual or sissy “jokes”

Jason, however, definitely male

In terms of the actual statement, that "adults are also expected to adhere to gendered appearances so people know how to treat them", completely aside from the point that rare exceptions don't change that fact, I don't see that Jason Momoa offers much of a rebuttal anyway. He spends all hours in the gym to look muscular and masculine, and has a big bushy beard!

Whatever a baby is dressed in, it won’t remember. It’s all about your parenting preferences and has nothing to do with the child and what they will be when they grow up. When they have opinions, they will tell you. You could brainwash them of course so they don’t have opinions and totally agree with you because they dare not do anything else. Best to be flexible. That goes for the poor grandparents too!

You have allowed him to choose some clothes at 10? Does he not have any opinions on what he looks like? Haven’t you allowed him to develop his personality via clothes ?

@ShutUpaYourFace

The clothes are just one aspect of reinforcing gender stereotypes.

It's not just about the clothes, it's about toys (spacial awareness toys for boys, dolls and roleplay for girls), how you speak the them (be a big boy, don't cry. What a pretty girl. Boys will be boys. She's so bossy. He's a natural leader). It's about the examples that are set, whether dad does the housework, whether mum's job is seen as equal value to dad's.

At the minute it's terrible- even Lego figures made for girls have tiny waists, boobs etc, the stereotypes of what we are supposed to become are everywhere.

And things like clothes reinforce that. If children learn to associate themselves with dinosaurs and trucks and building blocks from day 1 they may be less likely to pick up a doll and practice being daddy. Or if a girl strongly associated pink branding with being acceptable, she's less likely to be happy with being given a meccano set, which don't come in pink and in the long run feel less OK with applying for an engineering degree.

Stereotyping and differences in how we treat babies starts right at the beginning, and it limits both boys and girls in terms what they see is acceptable for them to do throughout their lives. Arguably worse for girls, who tend to be more limited, which is why feminism is still a thing.

^ 👆👆👆👆👆
This a million percent!!

Beautifully put @Canyousewcushions
You've just articulated what I've tried and failed to. Thank you! How can anyone disagree with this?!

I don't disagree with it. It's a great theory. But it's not my experience.
My daughter is qualitatively different from her brothers and has been since she could crawl. She is much more socially alert and more keen to be involved with daily stuff. Always had been. Clearly not every girl and not every boy but I am more convinced that nature is involved as well as nurture since having children of both sex.

Not rtft, but if your aim is just to get neutral clothes rather than radicalise your parents and in laws to the cause, just say that neutral colours are more likely to get used on a subsequent child.
Unless you are not planning on producing a subsequent, and they might get upset about having bought beige and red under false pretences!

I don't disagree with it. It's a great theory. But it's not my experience.
My daughter is qualitatively different from her brothers and has been since she could crawl. She is much more socially alert and more keen to be involved with daily stuff. Always had been. Clearly not every girl and not every boy but I am more convinced that nature is involved as well as nurture since having children of both sex

Anecdote does not make data. You have a test group of n=1, you cannot extrapolate that to the population.

You will subconsciously have treated your children differently- see the bbc video upthread. Society will have different expectations from birth.

The example I always use is in the UK, liking football is held up as something boys “naturally” gravitate to. It’s masculine, something they like even if you aren’t interested.

In the US soccer is a girls sport. Girls “naturally” enjoy it, and are good at it. Boys who play it are girly and gay.

It’s a societal construct.

I have two kids. They are both fairly gender non-conforming. If they dress “girly”, they are treat completely differently to if they wear jeans and a hoody.

Whatever, @Canyousewcushions is spot on. Gender stereotyping is harmful, and teaches children what they can and can’t do based on sex. That’s without even getting into the whole “my boy likes pink and sparkles, is he a girl trapped in a male body?”

I know, understand and agree with everything canyousewcushions wrote there...but back in day to day life you just say thank you for gifts you aren’t delighted by and put them aside.
Non issue.

bluezoo
I don't agree. Natural selection and the animal kingdom especially in mammals, it's the females that nurture and raise the babies in the vast majority of cases. I just don't agree that gender expression differences at population level are only to do with the way we raise kids. Do lionesses treat their female Cubs differently? Is that why male lions don't tend to look after the young? Or chimpanzees?

M&S plain white baby gro packs are lovely quality and always seem really comfy. Ask for loads of these!

OP, in about two years time you will be chasing a toddler around to get them to wear (and not immediately remove) any item of clothing at all. Trust me, you won’t care whether it reinforces gender stereotypes or not.

Equally, you want to keep any potential a babysitters well and truly on your good side if you ever want a lie in again.

If it bothers you that much, just say you want unisex clothing so you can reuse it with any subsequent children.

I dressed mine in whatever fit and looked comfortable. They played with various toys, dressing up etc as they wanted.

Around 3, some wanted nails painted, makeup and heels etc including my boys. They all played with trains, garages, kitchens and dolls.

One around 7 shoved up some balloons up his top to see how it would look. But then so did his two younger sisters.

Used to let them chose clothes etc from a very young age. Had no choice really as they were with me. Once online shopping came along it was even easier to direct them to websites, let them add stuff and me filter through. And this included dresses etc my sons chose, as well as the dinosaurs, trucks etc from the boys department for my dd's.

I never made a thing about their gender growing up. But then a lot of the stuff associated with being female I don't do anyway, although my ex did and vice versa.

Had a group chat a while ago with adult dc's about wifework. Completely baffled and took the absolute piss.

No1: you're going to have many disagreements with them. Trust me....

No2: try explaining that you don't want uncomfortable dresses or fussy clothes and prefer more gender neutral outfits that are still very cute!

No3: regarding your child's later preferences there is nothing you can do about that. I never encouraged it but DD1 loves princesses and pink!! Before watching any of the princess movies I must say. You'll just have to respect your childs choices, to an extent :p

I love how there are always two camps on the "non gendered clothing" side - the ones who love all-white, and nothing else, maybe the occasional pastel yellow, beige or grey and the ones who love scandi patterns, clashing colours, rainbows, stripes and plain bright colours with NO SLOGANS :o

I am in the second camp, mostly, but I think some of the scandi pattern clothes are ugly, most are massively overpriced and I have no aversion to slogans or pictures, as long as I find them funny/cute or they reflect an interest of my child.

And yes my elder one has been strictly dressed in tones of black and white since he was about 9. So it seems my bright colours did not appeal to him after a while :)

@NewbieMumma

^ 👆👆👆👆👆 This a million percent!!

Beautifully put @Canyousewcushions
You've just articulated what I've tried and failed to. Thank you! How can anyone disagree with this?!

I don’t disagree and think it’s wonderfully written.

It’s not what you’ve said though. You said your dm and DMIL were 1950s housewife’s who wanted to let your son wear blue and your daughter pink. It’s is MUCH more to do with how they are treated, the words used, the toys they play with freely and the environment they grow up in. A lot of us have said this and you’ve said it yourself. So why are you dying on the hill of newborn clothing?! Just because grandma wants to give a pink dress or blue top doesn’t mean you need to dress them in that ALL the time. Surely allowing a child to have a range of options is healthier than saying no don’t wear pink it’s too girlie to a little girl whilst equally it seems saying wear pink it’s good to not wear blue to a son.

Trucks dinosaurs fairies unicorns. Let the child be. They WILL choose their own interests regardless of your influences.

I think you’re being quite mean spirited about your inlaws and mum too. They are excited for a new baby. The clothes they GIFT you now will have ZERO influence in your child. I wouldn’t start a battle over this. Save your good point and energy for when you DO have to battle. If granny is the type that comes away with “no you can’t play with a doll you’re a boy” “aren’t you pretty / aren’t you strong” THEN you have your argument and firmly put a stop to it. I was dreading all this when pregnant as got a lot of pink pink pink talk and I did get some pink clothes from both sets of grandparents. But you know what they also bought her duplo (not the Disney princess version!) and her first science set and they bought my son a toy mop and bucket Because he loves helping granddad mop the floors (yes grandad - far more more important influence that a T-shirt picture!) and they got him a dolly when my baby was born so he could be a daddy too. He also got science sets Lego duplo. Your grandparents could surprise you too / don’t fight a battle that you might not need to!!

I actually find the people that shout the loudest about all this have the worst attitude to gender issues. Generally most of the population just doesn’t give a flying fig if their kids wear boy girl themed clothing (talking about logos on jumpers etc) or play with dolls cars trucks dinosaurs whatever. I’d say most let kids play with everything. Of course there are outliers who do hold very strange views that boys must not play with dolls etc but there are always extreme views everywhere.

I don’t think you need to be putting so much energy into this if you genuinely have equal views of boys and girls that will come
Into all
Aspects of your parenting automatically and in your lifestyle. Grandma buying them a wee truck sleepsuit or a flower sleepsuit as a newborn won’t make a joy of difference.

SIL who loves to buy loads of baby/toddler/kids' clothes for us and seems to really love the gendered stuff has been absolutely brilliant BTW at picking out bright yellows, greens, oranges because I said I like bright colours. Yes they are all from the "boys" section (but TBH it's hard to buy from the girls' section without encountering frills, lace, bows, scallops, or "waist tailoring" ) and there is a lot of navy and grey in there as well, and we had the polo shirt vests (!) which I only put on him about once because I don't like the way they look, but generally - navy and grey actually go really well with the other bright colours I like, and she does pick up some stuff I really end up liking. And because we are so lucky to be bought lots of things, it means that I can pick and choose out of what we are given my favourites to be rotated more often, I have more spare money to spend on brands/styles that I like (and might be unaffordable if I had to buy every single piece of clothing) and overall - it's just not a terrible effect.

I will be keeping 90% of the "boys" clothing for any future girls as well.