What would put you off becoming close friends with another woman?

[JungleRaisin]

I’ve never been able to manage to have a close friendship with another woman. Not in primary school, high school, sixth form, uni, or work.

They always see ‘be yourself’ but that clearly isn’t working for me. Makes me sad thinking I’m always going to have to put on a fake persona of normality if I am ever to make any female friends :(. I don’t know exactly what I’m doing wrong,

Please tell me your pet peeves in other women during the first convos that would put you off pursuing a close friendship with them? It seems faulty universal among women so any pounders would help.

I don’t massively struggle with getting male friends but I guess they don’t spot the social faux pas as much as women do.

I’m described as chatty, witty, always friendly, too nice (I.e everyone thinks I’d never lose my temper) but also a little cold so if I’ve any real bad traits, people clearly aren’t telling me about them. I think I am fairly intense and ask a lot of questions about someone’s life even on day 1 but also over-share about myself a bit.

Any tips?

• lots of moaning, complaining about life or general stuff and being a sourpuss.

- women who are too emotional, the huggy types who believe in all that “sisterhood” bullcrap. Just keep it real.

• neediness, clinginess, not knowing when to leave people alone and let them breathe.
• women who are too bubbly but without a real sense of humour.
• someone who talks too much and doesn’t notice it.
• freeloading tossers and asking for too many favours.
• a gossip who talks about others behind their backs in a mean way. She will do the same to you.

I’m always amused by the claims on these threads that ‘some women’ only choose friends they perceive to be plainer than them. Just for once, I’d like someone to come on and say her main friendship strategy is choosing comparatively ugly friends to make herself look good in photos, or someone conventionally unattractive coming on to say that being plain is great, because you have so many more friends than supermodels who sit at home blowing out their own birthday candles and phoning the speaking clock to hear another voice.

But of course it’s always other women.

Hm. When I was about 14 my two best friends were both models and actually it was quite tough. They were both size 6 and very naturally beautiful. I was size 12 and have never been beautiful; the most I have been is striking, in a tall, strong featured way. But then I was definitely the fat friend and the self concept of being plain and fat and dowdy did stay with me for some time. I put up with men talking to me about how much they fancied my friend etc. I was more grateful and less wise about attention than I might have been.

I don't think about that very often - you just reminded me. It's not something that really stayed with me and in fact I am still good friends with one of those girls and she is still beautiful and I am still quite a lot less beautiful, though improved somewhat since that awkward 14 year old. But I do have compassion for women who don't want to be that person. Without a bit of a grit it can be quite brutal.

I've always found it easier to be friends with men than women- my OH hated this from day 1 with the notion of 'they're only after one thing' which is rubbish (I have a few gay male friends who I'd say I was closest to). I've just always found conversations easier, less intrusive, funnier, more 'to the point'...

There used to be a group of us girls until a few years ago, we've all seemed to have spread out now and gone our separate ways, but there was always this 'compare' or underhanded 'judgement' vibe about us all whilst together- physically, financially...a 'who was better' feeling of one-upmanship?

When it comes to making friends with other women personally I like to find common ground- I don't react well to being asked a load of questions about my life, especially meeting someone initially, I'd find it over-bearing and standoffish- also compliments..'I like your nails/hair, where did you get it done, how much did it cost....' I always think 'why do you want to know'?

Granted, this is very much a 'me' thing and I probably come across as a right bitch, I have a few girlie friends who I talk to, but mainly about 'mum stuff', nothing really deeper than that- I actually wish I did have more female friends but its difficult to get past that initial stage, for me anyway..

Re: giving advise instead of empathy... I don't think giving advice is a bad thing, but how it comes across could be an issue. My sister very much responds with "you should......." instead of "what about.....?" Every time I then have to explain to her I've already thought of that and discarded that for this reason. The assertiveness of her advice makes it feel like an argument and I have to defend my position on why I didn't act that way. Also it feels like she's implying I'm stupid for not thinking of that solution, when actually I had and discarded it for a good reason. Whereas "what about...?" feels more like brainstorming and just explaining the situation in more detail to her.

Empathy is important too - you mentioned dogs? My dog comes over when I'm upset and comes up for a cuddle and kisses. Yes I can't speak to him and get a reply, but his actions say "I believe this person deserves to be happy, I want to make her happy." It's nice to feel someone cares about how you feel.

Personally I found more friends when I started speaking my mind. My job involves appeasing people all the time, so I became very good at becoming non-offensive to everyone not just clients. But being non-offensive and unopinionated is incredibly boring (I love people with an opinion as long as they can justify it) and you will make no close friends at all. Stating your mind may push a lot of people away, but a few will stick! One or two is better than none!

The main thing that really puts me off anyone, male or female, is moodiness. I can't stand people who do that silent thing moody thing and can't actually say what's the matter. It's quite manipulative behaviour - so childish and I have no time for it in grown adults. As soon as someone shows signs of that then I would back right off and lose interest in being friends.

Personally I found more friends when I started speaking my mind.

That's really helpful advice for me- I think I worry about this too much when it comes to making friends with other women- I am quite opinionated at times and find myself 'keeping schtum' for fear of coming across insensitive or things being taken the wrong way.

The characteristics that draw me to someone tend to be:-

Good sense of humour
Kindness/empathy
Positivity
Intelligence and/or an interest in the wider world. I don't expect them to have three degrees, but to be well read and able to give informed opinions about things.

They don't have to have all of those characteristics but one or two are good.

So I guess I wouldn't be drawn to people who have/are:-

Poor sense of humour
Unkind
Negative
Lacking in intelligence/poorly informed about world events

I don't do drama or conflict so I avoid drama llamas.

If someone gets too personal too quickly, it makes me uneasy. I tend to assume they have poor judgement of personal relationships. Or that they don't have close friends to have those conversations with. Which in turn makes me wonder why they don't have close friends and if there's a good reason for that. Which probably displays a lack of kindness on my part.

Personally I found more friends when I started speaking my mind. My job involves appeasing people all the time, so I became very good at becoming non-offensive to everyone not just clients. But being non-offensive and unopinionated is incredibly boring (I love people with an opinion as long as they can justify it) and you will make no close friends at all. Stating your mind may push a lot of people away, but a few will stick! One or two is better than none!

I entirely agree with this. The ones that stick will be your people.

Thanks so much for the various insights so far. Whilst I can come across intense, I struggle to understand how some women with far less than ideal personalities have been able to attract close female friends - for example a woman at work who is very shouty loud, constantly complains about stuff, talks over everyone, not smiley, thinks she’s right all the time, constantly talks without letting the other person speak, never asks the other person any questions except if she needs something, yet she’s got loads of women who want to hang out with her.

Whilst I’m socially awkward, I feel she’s like a bull dozer. Just surprised there’s far more people out there that like her personality type than mine (basically zero!)

@JungleRaisin perhaps they're intimidated by her?

You sound great OP. Don't change and am sure you'll find good friends soon enough.

@JungleRaisin its nothing to do with that person being liked necessarily... sometimes you befriend someone because of mutual advantage, either because you don't want to be on the receiving side of their grief, or because they know lots of things and will keep you up to date... or because they're generally entertaining and have lots of things going on in their lives...

I have a friend that is extremely vicious and vile, she's constantly negative and moans and bitches about ppl non-stop... yet many people come to her because she has all the gossips! Not because anyone likes her... I personally find her entertaining, it makes me feel better about myself that I'm not as vile and awful towards people, and I'm learning so much about self-control by being around her... we're both very strong personalities, and my manager can't get his head around how we're both friends (and there is 20 years age difference)

Thanks @incognitomum that's sweet of you. I've just had enough of waiting - I'm mid-late 20s and every woman has just been an acquaintance. A lot of men say I'm funny, never a dull moment with me, I keep them on their toes, smart, etc. whereas most women just say I seem like too nice/that they can't imagine I'd ever get angry at anyone.

I've probably now got a natural bias where I clam up when I try and befriend a women as I get about 80% success with befriending a man but less than 5% success with befriending a woman - I behaved towards both genders very similar at first I imagine but having had decades of noticing this divide, it is possible I'm giving off a desperate vibe when trying to befriend a woman as I see it as this coveted mission impossible thing.

Thanks @HannaH021 - I see your point. Odd that those women never get hated on, conditioning them to keep thinking they're in the right whilst people who are seen as a bit "too nice" are all too often left out and treated badly. It's just like at school when vile bullies will have an army of followers but no one would befriend the victim.

The shouty woman at work... do these people also socialise with her outside of work?

Sometimes those loud, annoying people look popular, I’ve found, but actually it’s just that they corner people and you feel like you have to put up with them lest you be seen as rude. If you’re at work it can be extremely difficult to avoid them or not engage, so I often find myself just nodding and smiling and looking like I’m interested but actually I’ve zoned out, I’m planning my exit and thinking “thank goodness I don’t have to socialise with this woman!”.
To the outside eye it may look like we are getting on but I’m just being polite and professional at work. But certainly there’s no way I’d want to meet up outside of work with someone like that! Some people just dominate social situations like conversations, it doesn’t always mean they are liked.

@JungleRaisin I have some really nice friends. Can't fault them. Me on the other hand But I'm a lot older than you. I don't have many friends from my youth. I keep in touch but my closest friends I've made in my 30s and 40s.

If they only talk about their babies, husbands or cats. If they drink every evening to relax (don't get it). If they look mean. If they care about one upmanship type things like clothing labels or phones. If they're overly involved in community things (in a queen bee way) rather than being a bit cynical. If they never read books.

Odd that those women never get hated on, conditioning them to keep thinking they're in the right whilst people who are seen as a bit "too nice" are all too often left out and treated badly. It's just like at school when vile bullies will have an army of followers but no one would befriend the victim.

See I think here you're othering other women again. Loud does not equal bully, quiet does not equal nice. I think you've got a self-fulfilling prophecy going on.

I wouldn’t worry too much about what other people’s friendships are like tbh. There are lots of reasons why not very nice people can still appear to have lots of friends. Doesn’t mean it’s any fun being friends with them. Think of it more in terms of dodging a bullet

I’m socially anxious so also overshare. I feel like I have to tell a potential new friend my life story to ‘explain’ why I might seem a bit odd to them. I have a DV past and a narcissist Mum and sister, and they’ve all made me feel as if people look at me strangely, like they know what’s happened to me, so I try to pre-empt it by telling them. Not really the sort of stories for a first ‘friendship date’ really!

I’ve only had one female friend in my entire 20s/30s/40s who lasted about 6 months because she just turned into the village Queen Bee and was playing the friendship group off against eachother, and am now early 50s and still don’t have one. I’d like one but feel I was disloyal to my best friend (husband). I can’t share myself around that much!

Plenty of male friends, they just seem more authentic and interesting. Plus I’ve not had good women role models my whole life (violent and domineering mother, abusive sister) so seem to have unconsciously avoided female friends.

I really hate this completely outdated misogynistic notion that other women will dislike you if you’re attractive. Most of my friends are average of attractive but I have two objectively gorgeous friends. They in turn have lots of friends. It’s about personality. I’m wary of women who claim they don’t really like other women or that they get on so much better with men. Although actually I mostly just feel sorry for them...some of my female friendships are my most profound, wonderful, rewarding relationships.
Things I look for in a friend - ability to listen, and not just talk about themselves. Genuine curiosity about my life/interests/opinions. Empathy by the bucketload. Someone to have a laugh with.

Re the female competition thing, I’ve heard this a lot. I think the reason I don’t experience it in my own friendship groups is that we’re all major feminists - there’s no one upmanship, no competing over men, we recognise internalised misogyny and do our best to tackle it. I realise this may sound overly earnest but I hear some descriptions of female friendships and just don’t recognise them from my own experiences.
My boyfriend’s sisters and mother seem to have bad luck with friendships and there’s definitely the competitive element/lack of support there.

Very odd that some posters claim that women who don't want to be friends with other women because the woman in question is more attractive, don't exist. Just because they are not like that it doesn't mean every women is the same as they are.

I've had experience with how competitive some women can be towards their friends and so have some of my female friends.
To claim our experiences never happened just because you never experienced them is just bizarre.

Oversharing
Talking over me
Manipulativeness
Trying too hard too soon to be my new bff
Bitchiness
Rudeness
Coldness
Condescending
Not listening
Seeming like they think they are better than me

That said, i get on with most people.

I can relate to the neediness - pretty sure the reason I lost a friend was because I texted too much. Also I think it might have been because I used to go on about DD to her. I really regret not sorting things out. It’s a couple of years ago now so a bit late.