What would put you off becoming close friends with another woman?

[JungleRaisin]

I’ve never been able to manage to have a close friendship with another woman. Not in primary school, high school, sixth form, uni, or work.

They always see ‘be yourself’ but that clearly isn’t working for me. Makes me sad thinking I’m always going to have to put on a fake persona of normality if I am ever to make any female friends :(. I don’t know exactly what I’m doing wrong,

Please tell me your pet peeves in other women during the first convos that would put you off pursuing a close friendship with them? It seems faulty universal among women so any pounders would help.

I don’t massively struggle with getting male friends but I guess they don’t spot the social faux pas as much as women do.

I’m described as chatty, witty, always friendly, too nice (I.e everyone thinks I’d never lose my temper) but also a little cold so if I’ve any real bad traits, people clearly aren’t telling me about them. I think I am fairly intense and ask a lot of questions about someone’s life even on day 1 but also over-share about myself a bit.

Any tips?

I don't know why people keep using Love Island as some sort of cultural shorthand that says everything about the person who watches it - I don't watch it but have still had fairly interesting conversations with people who do, around why it's had such a high death rate compared to other programmes etc. Or just if they show me a funny meme. If they want to talk about a specific event from last night's episode I just tune out for a few minutes and then rejoin the chat when it's moved on to something else, rather than immediately writing them off as not matching every single one of my interests. Also, a lot of my friends who watch love island and towie also watch the Handmaid's Tale, for example, so it's not as easy as putting people in small, very prescriptive boxes.

OP - not really sure what to say. Sometimes the amount of friends I've had have gone through stages, e.g. some workplaces I've got on well with people but would never have gone to the next step of 'closeness' such as going on holiday with them, having them round my house, etc. Whereas other places I've really gelled with colleagues and they've become some of my best friends. I haven't changed as a person much during these different times so just sort of thought that some times there are people you click with and some you don't and fair enough. So I understand it when people say they don't get on with their work colleagues, or school mums, or whatever. But if you've never got to the closer friendship stage ever, it does sound like there is something you are doing, not wrong, but different. Do you think you perhaps come off as very independent and not wanting to make close friends, even inadvertently?

Have you ever actually said out loud "I get on better with men" because I have to admit when people say that I do roll my eyes a bit and would be less likely to think I'll get on with them - not because there's anything wrong in having male friends but because of what the need to announce it says about a woman.

Also I think the older you get the harder it is to make really close new friends anyway.

Just from what you’ve posted on this thread OP I think they’re backing off because you’re too needy and intense. Too eager.

On this thread alone you’ve requested people to go into extra, minute details and asked lots of questions.

I don't know why people keep using Love Island as some sort of cultural shorthand that says everything about the person who watches it agreed I don't watch it, but I have intelligent friends who do. I like philosophy and history, but I used to love a bit of geordie shore too.

"Well I have plenty of friends, so, meh. Why force myself to spend time with people my values are fundamentally misaligned with?"

I suppose I just find it odd that presumably all your friends think exactly the same as you.

What if one of them changes their opinion? Would you discard them?

Rugrats : only friends with people of similar values?

I find the best friendships are with those who ..... have some similarities, but are mostly very very different to me.

Dh and I share morals, and how we treat people. But he is driven, and I am a sedentary slob.

My closest friends are moralistic vegans, but I love meat, am negative realistic about how shitty people generally treat each other, and don't care who you voted for in Brexit. When I have problems, their viewpoint is enlightening and one I never would've considered without promoting.

@Newyear I think I am the culprit here who initially mentioned LI!

I just included it as an example of an external topic of discussion (as part of list of more serious subjects) to someone's own life and that of the people around them.

These can be very engaging but in some people it can be the limit of their conversation.

I meant that I would prefer to take a conversation or acquaintance forward if the other person was interested in other things going on in the world, could be scientific developments, the natural world, news, the arts but also pop culture event such as LI.

LI seems to be a bit of a leveller, I didn't watch it until last year but was finally persuaded by a very learned pal (and my boss) and have had some really interesting discussions about it, the ethics, mental health risk mitigations as well as the characters involved and their romances etc.

You're right in that watching or being aware of a popular programme does not preclude a knowledge of weightier subjects or interesting opinions.

I don’t warm to women who tell me they prefer being friends with men. Like a badge of honour. I think they see women as gossipy bitches who they are superior to in some way. Also linguistic analysis shows men gossip as much as women - it’s a homo sapien trait.

There’s quite a gulf between having friends with exactly the same views on everything and friends whose views are diametrically opposed to mine.

I don't think I've ever met someone for the first time/first convo and hoped to pursue a close friendship from that. Better for things to happen naturally, ask questions genuinely interested in and listen properly, have a laugh relax and be yourself

I'd find it off putting if someone was too intense during the first convo and too familiar either by the end of the convo or subsequently and would assume they would be needy.

Close friendships develop naturally over time in my experience

Gwynfluff personal experience tells me men are just as bitchy as women. Possibly more so as they don't get chastised for it like women do.

I have very few friends. I find some people have limited lines of conversation, so I have nothing to talk about with them. I don't mean that, to be friends, we must have exactly the same interests, values, etc. but there needs to be some overlap. I find some tastes off-putting - I won't name them here as I am not looking for a bun-fight, but I mean the 'bandwagon' type things that everyone jumps on without thinking. Also, people who can't talk about anything except their children (I don't have any children). One of my friends has children, but she can talk about plenty of other things as well.

How can you be always friend and cold. I wonder whether you’re giving off some kind of bad vibe that women have picked up on. Generally women tend to have more emotional intelligence than men and probably aren’t twirled by good looks as easily. Have you thought about joining a hobby type gathering where you may be more common minded women.

Are you really beautiful?
My stunning teenage daughter struggling with girl friendships (she is lovely and not an alpha female and had no problem in primary school )
Mainly no one wants to be the less pretty friend. All the boys go after her etc.
Thinking back to school I remember most of the truly beautiful girls had only one friend even though they were lovely! We were all threatened by their beauty and wanted to dislike them. Was pure jealousy

I have only had a very few close friends and managed to lose them due to geographic distance. I’ve come to the the conclusion that I’m not actually likeable. The lonelier I am the more odd I probably come across. I have a cat , dh, dd a love of gardening and reading and that will have to do.

I'm neurodivergent and my few close friends with whom I feel I have a deep connection are similar.

I often feel I'm somehow on the outside and not quite connecting with neurotypical people. We get on fine and arrange social things which are nice, but it's not the same as the interactions I have with the small number of people I consider to be 'my people'. They get me and I get them, so it's just easy. With everyone else it takes a bit of effort.

Whether it's based in neurodivergence or something else, OP, I think it's important not to think there must be something wrong with you if you're not clicking with people. You don't have to audition to be someone's friend, and if you're having to try very hard, they're probably not your people.

I would try doing a hobby or sport that you enjoy so you'll naturally be around a higher proportion of like-minded people. And try to relax about what they think about you - it will put people off if you're self-conscious and concerned about how you're coming across as they'll pick up on the fact you're not relaxed. It may even look like you're not being genuine if you're worrying about it all and that can put people off too.

Do you really see men and women as two such distinct groups?

I honestly have no criteria for new friendships and I do think trying to quantify it into desirable vs undesirable behaviour will have you thinking about it for the rest of your life @JungleRaisin

I also find it difficult to make friends/maintain friendships, there’s a lot of reasons for that, but I had to turn the dissection of why the friendships I have had, dissipated and reflect on what part I had in those occurrences. Sometimes I was mostly at fault due to some of my odd behaviours (I have difficulty with a lot of social etiquette stemming from a rather difficult childhood) and of course, have changed over the years in terms of what I like and dislike, what boundaries I have etc.

I’m still somewhat friendless, but I’m working on it and I’m sure you will be able to as well. I now go into any new relationship (friendship or otherwise) with an open mind and zero expectations, I will say off the bat I’m not too good at maintaining eye contact, I struggle to know when it’s time to speak/listen and that if I step on any toes (so to speak) please tell me - I know that’s putting a bit of responsibility on the other persons shoulders quite early and I’m working towards not having to put that disclaimer in at the beginning of conversations with new-ish people. I don’t go straight in with it mind, I try first to converse normally but I tend to realise afterwards if I’ve talked over them, over shared a bit or what have you, then will raise it the next chance I can, apologise for it and mention the above - always end on a joke of “don’t be afraid to tell me to stop talking as I know I can go a mile a minute at times!”.

It’s working but slow progress. Also I wouldn’t judge a person based on their TV likes and dislikes, I find that a bit odd tbh.

@JungleRaisin @EatingIsMyHobbypretty much sums it up.

I am trying to think of examples in my own life to help illustrate. I'm quite introverted and am happy in my own company. I do have female friends but we have shared history and experiences that have developed over time. If it becomes too intense from the get go I feel they have overstepped the boundaries and are wanting more from me than I'm prepared to give.

The ones I am closest to include:
Bestie - knowns since school. Grew up together and know so much about each other that there is a familiar comfort there.
Mid-life crisis friend - met back packing and we have shared interests and principles.
Mum friend - met 11 years ago. Get on well, share tales, common interests other than children and on the same wave length

Have a wide pool of less close friends. Friendly but an acceptable level of interaction. Things in common but not always on the same wave length. Can go on weekends with them but not weeks as it would be too much - like I said, I'm an introvert and need time and space to recharge.

Some examples of friends who have come and gone:
A friend of my husbands. They met through a common activity and she became a joint friend but she was too intense, too soon. She would tell me too much about herself that made me think she was looking for a best friend and had chosen me. I didn't want to be giving out advice constantly, a friendship has to flow naturally and it was too one-sided.
A friend in a wider group who also became more intense with me. Initially I welcomed it and we would txt, WhatsApp but she became overbearing and I felt smothered. She would over gift, making me feel like I was beholden to her. Some gifts were just not what you buy in a friendship context (underwear), she would send about 5 messages to my one. The friendship felt unbalanced. I had to tell her as gently as possible to back off as I was feeling smothered. I still feel bad about that but she wasn't respecting (or even was aware of my boundaries). She would rush conversations, going off in tangents without processing what I'd just said. Made me feel like she wasn't really listening to me but was 'being a nice friend' to make herself feel good.

I have other friends that are a bit different in that in RL we know each other through a common hobby but we are all introverts so have better conversations in our private WhatsApp group. We have met in RL outwith our hobby and we help each other along, that's the kind of basis of our wee group but I think all of us understand that we don't want any more from each other than the status quo. We've shared a lot of personal stuff and trust each other enough to know it's not going any further but if you met us all in RL together you'd think we were merely vague acquaintances.

It's hard to always be aware of the social nuances surrounding friendships, especially when making friends later in life. As you get older it is natural that people have accumulated enough friends so anyone coming across as desperate for friendship, will, unfortunately, get the exact opposite result in that they chase folk away.

I'm trying to think of a better approach for you as you clearly want to do something about it. You seem aware that you may be a bit intense and overshare so addressing that might be a good start. Try to hold back on lots of personal information and don't ask too much of the other person. It will be hard to expect results with folk you've already met so perhaps find new interests to meet new people where you have things in common as a start.

I know a few women whose friends are mostly men due to their work and interests. They just know more men than women and their friendships reflect this.

Women who like to make a point of preferring male friendship put my back up. If a woman says that to me, she is instantly categorising me as somehow lesser than these wondrous men and I should be grateful she has stooped to talk to me. That's not what I really want in a friend. When I was younger, it often meant she was after my boyfriend as well.

Thinking the other way round, there's a man I work with who most people avoid. He's pleasant enough, if a little bit intense, but he has the most off-putting habits like constantly clearing his throat, coughing on people, eating while he's trying to talk to you and laughing inappropriately. He doesn't always respect others' personal space very well either. I don't think he can help some of his habits but it's quite hard to talk to him for more than a few minutes without feeling a bit ill sometimes.

Thanks a lot for all your detailed insightful feedback so far, everyone. I'm actually quite surprised by how many common themes are emerging in what posters are saying would be turn-offs for them in a potential friend.

When I posted this question, I thought I'd get hugely varied responses as everyone is different and that it wouldn't be useful but it really has been.

If people could elaborate on what kind of things someone does or says in the first few meetings you would consider intense, that would be really helpful. Obviously, us intense people don't realize we're being intense as our perception is somewhat skewed in that regard.

Also, do you tend to expect the intensity to increase as your friendship builds?

I know I have the habit of bombarding people with questions if moments of silence appear in a first convo like "what's your name, where abouts do you live, what do you do, do you have any siblings". I always struggle to say something about me without being asked. I'm very open and chatty when I am asked but I'm not one of these people who can get into a monologue of myself uninvited so I do more firing questions to fill silences than saying my life story.

Small talk such as weather etc. seemed so boring that I always just skip to the nitty-gritty (like skipping the appetiser for the main course) Maybe that comes across psycho or invasive?

& I don't think I've ever mentioned to women that I find it easier to befriend men as I'm almost ashamed of that fact and fear it would be a self-fulfilling prophecy if I were to go around saying that to women who I was trying to befriend.

@imalittlethrowaway missed what boat? You're only 30, just a young pup!

OP I wonder if you are being too unkind on yourself.

Maybe it’s just a case of meeting like minded people? Are you musical? Could you join w choir or a local voluntary group?

As I have got older I have realised I am not one for big groups of women and I’m ok with that.

I'm physically attractive but popular so don't think that necessarily puts people off.

Maybe you should ask what makes a good friend. I'm very dependable and have never ditched friends for a man. I'm outgoing and can be a bit loud but even my quieter friends love me. I keep in touch with people but not over the top. I'm adventurous and have interests. I like my own company.

I'm also overly honest sometimes but admit to that and tell people to just say if I am. I can't lie.