London Bridge incident **WARNING from MNHQ - graphic content**

[Beveren]

Anyone there? Reports are sketchy at the moment. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2019/nov/29/london-bridge-incident-police-city

@HoldNose can you really not imagine a situation where you would kill another person?

What would you do if someone was threatening your loved one, determined to kill them?

(Your behaviour on this thread is fascinating. Choosing this thread to state, but not really discuss, your beliefs on taking of a life).

I was thinking just the other day if you were driving and drove past aknife attack provided there was a clear distance between you and the public you could drive straight into the attacker and use your car to Disarm him

@HoldNose is nothing more than a terrorist sympathiser. There's no point trying to get through.

@HoldNose Murder is the unlawful killing of another human.

The AFO who shot him had the legal right and power to do so. He didn't murder anyone. He did his job.

My DH is an AFO and you really have no idea what they do. Your comments are vile.

As for giving the convicted murderer on day release a knighthood? Just no. He just reacted, as many people would. In fact you could go as far to say that he still lacks consequential thinking (despite acting very bravely). The rehabilitation of prisoners in this country is very focused on consequential thinking skills.

“As for giving the convicted murderer on day release a knighthood? Just no. He just reacted, as many people would. In fact you could go as far to say that he still lacks consequential thinking (despite acting very bravely). The rehabilitation of prisoners in this country is very focused on consequential thinking”

I think the somewhat unpalatable truth is that ex violent offenders often have a propensity to violence which can very occasionally - in this situation- be positive, but is still a more violent reaction than an average person might have.
In other words, how much did his violent tendencies Contribute to his heroism?

Also I completely agree, the police must have very clear instruction on when to shot to kill. If any opportunity for an individual decision comes into play, vital seconds are lost.

One of the men that detained him was a convicted murderer out on licence who allegedly knew the terrorist. Does he still deserve a medal?
Yes. The fact he has previous convictions have absolutely no bearing on the actions he took yesterday. He didn’t go out and kill the bloke, he held him down to prevent other, innocent people being killed. It’s not like prison where the mob meters out vijilanti justice. He was free, presumably considered rehabilitated, and clearly showed that fact in the course of helping to protect innocent bystanders. If all of this is even true, where does it state that he was a murderer? Somewhere designed to take away from those who helped and create sympathy for the murderer perhaps?

Another was an off duty police officer, doing what he was trained to do. What about him? What about him? He still held down a man without the knowledge that he potentially had a suicide vest and could kill them all. Anyone who risks their life to protect others is a hero, regardless of whether they’re trained or not.

As others have said, not everything is black and white. yes, it is.

Exactly pass the cherry and that is the type of thing that the parole board will want to look at. He was on release on temporary licence so he's not yet an "ex-offender". He's a convicted prisoner still serving his sentence.

If he gets a knighthood then I'll truly believe the world has gone mad

I don’t imagine any of them are going to get knighthoods tbh.

As for the terrorist sympathiser up-thread, don’t @MNHQ have some protocols to follow here?

It’s one thing to believe that killing isn’t necessarily the answer, but it’s quite another to condemn th killing of a convicted terrorist in defence of the people he was murdering. Surely the authorities would be interested in that?

@AlternativePerspective you've made a lot of assumptions there. And factually a lot of it is wrong.

"The fact he has previous convictions have absolutely no bearing on the actions he took yesterday."

It absolutely does to the people who have to assess his risk. Also his current conviction is not yet "previous". He still has to be regularly risk assessed due to this.

"It’s not like prison where the mob meters out vijilanti justice."

If you are involved with mobs and vigilantes then prison is often actually much safer than the streets of our cities.

"He was free, presumably considered rehabilitated, and clearly showed that fact in the course of helping to protect innocent bystanders."

No, he showed that he acted bravely but didn't necessarily think through the consequences of his actions. This could go in his favour or against him on any risk assessment. He was not free, he was on temporary licence with strict conditions. Think "day release". It's basically a test that does carry some risk for the prison service but needs to be done for resettlement purposes. He is absolutely not considered rehabilitated at this point. He's considered a lower risk than when he was first convicted and the release on temporary licence is part of his resettlement.

"If all of this is even true, where does it state that he was a murderer? Somewhere designed to take away from those who helped and create sympathy for the murderer perhaps?"

No, not from there. From the aunt of the teenage girl with SEN that he murdered. She has spoken out because she probably feels a bit sick inside that the country is calling him a "hero".

Sorry, that's hard to read. My bits were meant to be in bold 🙄

He's not yet an ex-offender, he was out on temporary licence to attend a conference on prisoner rehabilitation. He is in prison for this crime: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/3659523.stm

That's quite something to negate by helping to restrain someone who had just committed other murderous acts, I think, so yes, things arent black and white in this world. We also dont know, as others have said, whether he was just attracted to the violence going on.

15 years on, his minimum sentence

As for the terrorist sympathiser up-thread, don’t @MNHQ have some protocols to follow here?

Agree. Referring to the policeman who shot a man who had killed 2 people, and had what appeared to be wearing explosives, "a murderer" is beyond the pale.

Whatever the men tackling him on the bridge had done in the past, they all acted with extreme bravery, and put themselves at great personal risk to save others. The could have run the other way.

@theflushedzebra absolutely agree with all of that. I'm not saying that they weren't all brave, they were. I don't think knighthoods are appropriate for serving prisoners though.

The AFO should and will more than likely be commended. But not before his life is now turned upside down while his actions are investigated thoroughly. It's a high pressure job that comes home with you

But regardless of what happens after this, and no I don’t think he should be given a knighthood, or anyone else for that matter, The fact that it has been revealed that he Had a previous conviction is now being used to detract from the fact that were it not for him, more innocent people would have died, And so the terrorist is turned into a martyr while the man who held him down to prevent him from killing anyone else is turned into a hate figure.

Of course the in’s and outs will need to be investigated, but not by the general public. As much as I’m sure the family will forever grieve their loss, now is not the time or the place to start making comparisons. His sentence is separate to his actions yesterday.

I don't think there's any chance of knighthoods really.

No, you can't say more innocent people would've died. In fact they'd disarmed him already, another man removed one of his knives and the bomb vest was fake.

The headlines are saying that he is a "hero". He murdered a girl, with a knife, in an utterly horrific manner and dumped her on wasteland. He will never be a hero, nothing he can do now can make him a "hero". He doesn't get to live his life in separate compartments now. He will he assessed for risk for ever. He will be on a life licence. This very incident is now relevant to his rehabilitation process.

And he doesn't have "previous" convictions. This is a current offence, he's a serving prisoner. He showed bravery. He isn't a hero.

@retiredand totally agree. Really takes a special person to be an AFO I have friends who are, and a friend and colleague who was one of the first of scene as people were running out of borough market terrified saying someone had a knife - she was like me unarmed. This AFOs life will be turned upside down and his actions criticised by some.
Also agree that the comments made by HoldNose are inflammatory and vile.

@MrsH497 obviously with DH being one I know a fair few AFOs. They are special people, undergo lots of training and scrutiny. His life will absolutely now be turned upside down. For doing his job. An essential job that most people cannot do

Mumsnet is full of the following at election times:
a) paid trolls
b) cowardly namechangers who daren't post their bile under their more anodyne name
c) people who join MN quite innocently to talk about cream cheese and get weirdly drawn in to making obviously inflammatory comments and "winding them up watching them go"

Why, sometimes you get a 3 for 1 offer.

Just sayin'.

@retiredand absolutely I've considered applying but know I'm not the right person to be an AFO a role o hugely admire.

Most people manage self defense without taking a life.

But what is to happen when that is impossible, @HoldNose? Should the police have stood back and allowed this man to blow up himself and several other people?

It takes a particular type of person. That's for sure.

I've just considered my comments and I think history would be served well by giving one of the men there an award of some kind actually.

How many people can honestly say "I attacked a terrorist on London Bridge with a Narwhal tusk" 😂 give that man a bloody medal

Beveren I wouldn't bother. The disgusting comments made by that poster are hopefully troll posts

No, you can't say more innocent people would've died. In fact they'd disarmed him already, another man removed one of his knives and the bomb vest was fake.

But the man concerned did not know that the bomb vest was fake, or whether the terrorist had more weapons available.

I don't think a knighthood is in any way appropriate, but an honour for bravery might be, depending on all the circumstances once they are fully known.