Why are some Labour voters in denial about JCs endorsement of party wide anti-Semitism

[Rainbowhairdontcare]

I'm in a tactical vote group on FB. There was a fairly civilised discussion about JC when I said as a Jew I can't vote for him, nor any of the members of the small community where we live.

Then I got told off for buying the "fear mongering biased media".

I've read and heard what he's said. As a Jew I can clearly see it as anti-Semitism. It baffles me that people are still in denial about it.

*BJ literally used the terms "piccaninnies" and "watermelon smiles" and did not resign- letterboxes, arse-bandits, 'hilarious' odes about the pm of turkey, boris can and does get away with all sorts of foul behaviour- odd to suggest he doesnt.
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This!!

JC is not anti-Semitic. He has not dealt with complaints of anti semitism within his party properly that is true. Supporting the Palestinians is not the same as anti-semitism.

I would much rather have someone who will fund the public sector properly - emergency services, schools, youth work, hospitals, social care - these are the things that make a difference to people's lives.

PLEASE DON'T VOTE BORIS IN! 🙏

JC is not anti-Semitic.

So he’s the unluckiest non-antisemite there is? Just keeps accidentally hanging out with anti-semites, sharing platforms with holocaust deniers, whoops he supported an anti-Semitic mural, oh no he’s messed up again writing a forward to an anti Semitic book. And isn’t it weird how he’s failed to deal properly with anti-semitism in his party?

It’s all just total bad luck that it makes him look anti-Semitic himself isn’t it?

nice one noblegiraffe - and none of those examples are related to Israel. unfortunately the duck really does look like a duck.

the fact that Johnson practices a different kind of racism doesn't excuse Corbyn. It's not a matter of who is less shit - even though it is...

As my user name may indicate, I am Jewish and I will be voting Labour -- so pleased that some of you are gracious enough to admit that people like me exist.

I am very interested in the accusations of anti-semitism against Corbyn though, and do want to understand what they are based on, and will be working my way through this thread over time. But let me turn to one of the early 'examples' of Corbyn's anti-semitism: the fact that he didn't accept the IHRA definition of anti-semitism.

In my view, the definition proposed runs the risk of turning any justified criticism of Israel into 'anti-semitism'. The one paragraph definition is very vague, and so the IHRA offer as a guidance. This guidance includes:

"Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations."

"Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor."

"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis."

(I've taken this from
www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism)

I can imagine that there are people who do such things in a way that is anti-semetic. But I can also see people raising these points to make valid criticisms of the state of Israel.

So, to me, the IHRA definition is contentious and risks shutting down legitimate discussion about the state of Israel.

Obviously, the issues here are a minefield which are almost impossible to discuss in a forum. But my main point is, deciding against accepting the IHRA definition is by no means in and of itself evidence of anti-semitism.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/03/ihra-antisemitism-labour-palestine

is an interesting article which may explain why people resist adopting the IHRA definition.

I can imagine that there are people who do such things in a way that is anti-semetic.

Can you explain how someone might compare Israelis to Nazis in an innocent, non-anti-Semitic way that should be allowed?

Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

Well, this is a common anti-Semitic trope thrown around a lot by actual anti-semites. Do you think it’s reasonable to accuse a British Jew, never been to Israel, who is concerned about antisemitism in the Labour Party of smearing Jeremy Corbyn to further Israeli interests? Because that’s the sort of thing that is pretty widespread, and hopefully you’d agree, unacceptable.

If you want people to be able to say that Jews are more loyal to Israel than their own nation, then aren’t you implying that that there’s some truth in it? Something that you really should think twice about.

@noblegiraffe

I can imagine that there are people who do such things in a way that is anti-semitic.

Can you explain how someone might compare Israelis to Nazis in an innocent, non-anti-Semitic way that should be allowed?

Israeli is not the same as Jewish. (Also, and this may be strictly a matter of tone, but I think it matters) the wording of IHRA forbids comparing Israel to Nazi Germany.

The comparison that is made is between the behaviour of two states and a comparison between the actions of states is not, in and of itself, a racist matter. My father did, in argument, make the comparison to many of his Israeli-supporting relatives provocatively, yes -- to try and get them to see how badly (he felt) Israel was behaving.

I do not believe my father was anti-semitic, and I do not think his making of the comparison was anti-semitic. It's certainly not anti-semitic by definition -- which the IHRA want it to be.

Do you think it’s reasonable to accuse a British Jew, never been to Israel, who is concerned about antisemitism in the Labour Party of smearing Jeremy Corbyn to further Israeli interests? Because that’s the sort of thing that is pretty widespread, and hopefully you’d agree, unacceptable.

I do completely agree that people who are concerned about anti-semitism should not be smeared as simply working in favour of Israel. As I said, in a certain context, certain actions and words are a thin smokescreen for anti-semitism. (for instance, I think that picture that Corbyn liked did deliberately use anti-semitic tropes). As a dual citizen myself, I have been asked questions about my own loyalty. I don't take these questions in and of themselves to be racist by definition.

And to think that certain questions should be allowed to be asked is certainly not to imply that there's some truth in those views. I think people should be allowed to say that God exists and the world is flat - but I think there's absolutely no truth to either of those views.

The compar
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

Well, this is a common anti-Semitic trope thrown around a lot by actual anti-semites. Do you think it’s reasonable to accuse a British Jew, never been to Israel, who is concerned about antisemitism in the Labour Party of smearing Jeremy Corbyn to further Israeli interests? Because that’s the sort of thing that is pretty widespread, and hopefully you’d agree, unacceptable.

Sorry -- last two paragraphs are parts of earlier drafts and incomplete as they stand.

Israeli is not the same as Jewish.

No, but you want to allow people to deny the Jewish right to self determination and call the State of Israel a racist endeavour AND you also want them to be allowed to compare the State of Israel to Nazis and pretend that the two things are done by completely different people for different and totally innocent reasons.

If someone who thinks they aren’t an anti-Semite wants to compare Israel to the Nazis, knowing why that’s horrendously offensive, they really should look at what company they are in and have a rethink.

Yossell - let's think of an equivalent. Suppose I said that in my view Chuka Umama and Kate Osamor are more loyal to Nigeria than Britain and could reasonably be assumed to be furthering Nigeria's interests through some conspiracy involving the Nigerian embassy, prominent Nigerian businessmen, etc. It would not only be obviously racist, but I would be carried out by men in white coats. No-one would make such a ludicrous assertion other than in respect of Jews, and this is why is is classed as a-s.

BBC reporting this morning:

• Jewish chronicle has a front page asking non-Jews also to consider not voting labour, and directly saying that Corbyn is an anti-semite.
• ex Labour Ian Austin saying the same. His adoptive father was a Kindertransport refugee, the only survivor of this family.

It will be interesting to hear Corbyn's responses to these accusations. I would think that anyone who isn't a Jew hater would be appalled and keen to prove the opposite.

evidence: mural, Munich terrorist support, Jewish MPs hounded out with no action and many others.

oh, and clearly Diane Abbott isn't the best advocate, more ludicrous responses from her being reported.

Jewish Chronicle is a disgrace. Their pathetic response to Reese Mogg and Farage's jew hate spelled it out for me

Why do people not feel completely ashamed of themselves for blatantly bringing this up and playing politics with it eveytime a vote is coming up?

@Patroclus. To clarify, you think that people should be ashamed of themselves for bringing up the issues of antisemitism in the Labour Party at a time when people might be thinking of voting for them?

Ashamed? Of what?

Labour are being investigated by the EHRC over it. It’s not nothing.

@noblegiraffe

If someone who thinks they aren’t an anti-Semite wants to compare
Israel to the Nazis, knowing why that’s horrendously offensive, they
really should look at what company they are in and have a rethink.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. Comparing the actions of a state rather than a race or a religion to an abhorrent regime is not, in and of itself, racist or religiously discriminative. And therefore think it should not be part of the definition of anti-semitism. I agree, the move is often made in a purely offensive way, and there are contexts where the user is anti-semitic. But comparing actions of regimes is not, in and of itself, racist or religiously discriminative.

As for the company I keep, I've mainly had or heard discussions involving these issues in my own family, at school (which, though not a religious school, was predominantly Jewish), and with a number of Israeli academics.

No, but you want to allow people to deny the Jewish right to self
determination and call the State of Israel a racist endeavour AND
you also want them to be allowed to compare the State of Israel to
Nazis and pretend that the two things are done by completely >different people for different and totally innocent reasons.

I don't know where you think I'm pretending anything. I know there's anti-semitism and that these points tend to be made by anti-semites. But there are also plenty of serious and complex discussions to be had about the nature of self-determination, statehood, and the comparisons of actions of states. And these points can be made in serious discussion without being anti-semitic. So I do not think they should be part of the definition of anti-semitism.

As for the company I keep whatever that's supposed to be about I've heard and had discussions about all these issues from my own family, at school (which was not religious but was predominantly Jewish), and with a few Israeli academics. And I learned a lot from having those discussions -- a lot about statehood, about the history, about the conditions under when a people or race or religion should have 'its own state'. And while the discussions could be heated, the discussions were never closed down by claiming that it was anti-semitic to discuss these things.

If someone who thinks they aren’t an anti-Semite wants to compare Israel to the Nazis, knowing why that’s horrendously offensive, they really should look at what company they are in and have a rethink.

Comparing the actions of a state rather than a race or a religion to an abhorrent regime is not, in and of itself, racist or religiously discriminative.

Why was that state created? Who moved to that state on creation in large numbers and why? Why might it be offensive to make that particular comparison?

Comparing Israel to Nazis isn’t the same as comparing, I dunno, any other country to Nazis. Why do you think antisemites deliberately do it?

As for the company I keep -- whatever that's supposed to be about

You misunderstood. My point was that if you were considering comparing Israel to Nazis, if you look around and see who else does the same thing, you would rightly avoid that comparison to avoid being lumped with them. Other abhorrent regimes are available.

When it nakedly playing politics they should be ashamed, yes.

The whole thing is being used by people who really dont want to pay proper tax, they have fuck all concern about the jewish community. SO yes people should be ettyashamed of doing the biddin of the owners of the Daily Mail and the rest.

I cant stand the man myself but these ridiculous remarks about what will happen if he get in to Jews. Well what will happen for gods sake?

I see the fact labour's last leader was jewish and was attacked for it by the right wing has been struck from the records.

Corbyn rejected the IHRA definition of anti Semitism; but the Party voted to accept it.

*BJ literally used the terms "piccaninnies" and "watermelon smiles" and did not resign- letterboxes, arse-bandits, 'hilarious' odes about the pm of turkey, boris can and does get away with all sorts of foul behaviour- odd to suggest he doesnt.
*

Nice to know overt racism like this is somehow ok but let's go after Jezza instead because he didn't accept some dubious definition of AS. FFS

David Rosenberg offers a balanced critique of this issue. I trust no one will object to a Jewish man's opinion on antisemitism?

www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/whos-afraid-of-jeremy-corbyn/

An interesting perspective from Rabbi Howard Cooper, who points out that the threat to the Jewish community in the UK is very much from the far right, not the left.

www.thejc.com/comment/comment/rabbi-s-don-t-vote-corbyn-message-will-only-stoke-jewish-fears-1.491022

Ah @MrsMaiselsMuff don’t bother posting anything from Jewish Voice for Labour, they can’t be trusted on issues regarding antisemitism.

@flashbac let's go after Jezza instead because he didn't accept some dubious definition of AS. FFS

From upthread “Just keeps accidentally hanging out with anti-semites, sharing platforms with holocaust deniers, whoops he supported an anti-Semitic mural, oh no he’s messed up again writing a forward to an anti Semitic book. And isn’t it weird how he’s failed to deal properly with anti-semitism in his party?”

If only it were one thing to go after ‘Jezza’ for Yes, Johnson is racist, luckily he won’t be getting my vote either, so I don’t need to bother trying to defend his comments.

@Patroclus Oh I’m not ashamed, I’ve been posting about Corybn’s issues with anti-semitism for months. I’m not a Tory voter either, btw.

His speaking at rallies to crowds of people chanting 'gas the Jews'. ... His approving comments on the most vile anti-semitic imagery. His support for Chris Williamson, Ken Livingstone, Jackie Walker and George Galloway.

Do you happen to have links to evidence for any of this, particularly the first? Chris Williamson used to be my MP and I do not believe he would endorse such things. I think that situation is far more nuanced and more to do with the politics of Israel. Perhaps we are all a bit too distanced from irrational hate nowadays to grasp it.

And we are living through the most dirty political period I can remember. No one knows who's being gamed for what purpose any more.

I’mGoingTo - you may regret asking that question, because yes, I have evidence for all of it. So I’ll break it down for you bit by bit. Let’s start with your lovely ex local MP Chris Williamson. Did you happen to read his resignation letter the other day. If not, I suggest you look it up - it is so full of anti-Semitic tropes it’s hard to know where to start with it, so I suggest you dig it out and have a read. If you don’t see a problem with it, it’s probably not worth further discussion. But I’m going to share some more links here, because if I can even convince a few people not to vote Labour in this election, it will have been worth it.